44. C-section recovery as an athlete & releasing the Type A with Sharon Fan

Written By Surabhi Veitch
MoSt #44: C-section recovery as an athlete & releasing the Type A with Sharon Fan
Surabhi Veitch, The Passionate Physio

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This is a super special episode with Sharon Fan, who I have the pleasure of knowing for many years now, and also got to support her in her postpartum recovery and return to fitness. Sharon and I discuss her experience as an athlete, ultra-marathoner and runner, and having an unexpected C-section in the middle of the pandemic. We talk about burnout in motherhood, how being Type A actually drove her to being more chill as a parent, and the importance of adequate maternal and parental support and leave. We discuss how being career driven often takes away from the joys of motherhood, and why it is really difficult to “have it all.”

We discuss:

  • Giving birth during the pandemic in Taipei, Taiwan

  • Why 6 weeks postpartum is just the start

  • Pressure to bounce back and hating her body

  • The unexpected benefits of motherhood in the pandemic

  • How she went from Type A to super chill after experiencing burnout

  • Outsourcing parenting

  • Social judgement for taking maternity and parental leave

  • How a society treats their mothers and why USA is failing moms

  • Unsupportive jobs and unfair preference for men

  • Why women treat each other like sh*t

  • Forgiving yourself for making mistakes

  • Our work together through virtual physiotherapy

  • Sharon’s advice to the average or high achieving athlete

  • Choosing career vs parenting

Sharon Fan

I'm a stay-at-home working mom with a 15 month old and a lover of spontaneous adventures, either in the mountains or in career. Motherhood has been THE greatest challenge of my life and I am still learning every day about myself, my relationships with my partner & family, and the world at large. I am Taiwanese-Canadian and my husband is Iranian-German, so we are also keen on exposing our child to as many cultures, languages, and perspectives as possible.

Links/Resources

Connect with Surabhi:

  • Please note that the time-stamps are slightly off since the transcript time starts once the intro music finishes. I apologize for the inconvenience. Editing is a work in progress!

    [00:00:00]

    Surabhi: Hello friends, and welcome back to season three of Mom Strength. I am your host Surabhi Veitch and I'm so pumped to have on one of my friends and one of my clients and an incredible mom with so much experience and wisdom to share. Sharon Fan I'm gonna introduce her first, and then I'm gonna have her, chat about herself.

    So Sharon is a stay-at-home mom, working mom with a 15 month old and a lover of spontaneous adventures either in the mountains or in her career. Motherhood has been the greatest challenge of her life, and she's still learning every day about herself, her relationships with her partner and family, and the world at large.

    She's Taiwanese Canadian and her husband is Iranian German, so they're keen on exposing their child to as many cultures, languages, and perspectives as possible. Hi Sharon. Welcome.

    Sharon: Hello. So I actually realize I don't really like being in the center of attention, but then when I'm giving the microphone, I'm kind of [00:01:00] like, get jazz up. Um, I remember actually dancing with, Surabhi in Ottawa when we really connected in 2007 and I think back and I'm like, Wow, that was 15 years ago.

    We were sort of, um, young, nubile college kids, um, just, just living. And I had no idea. You know, 15 years later we would connect on something that is even more sensitive and, and deeply important and impactful. Um, and I think the cool thing is throughout this whole process of us reconnecting and me becoming a client, we haven't actually physically met at all, right?

    Like, there, there's been a pandemic. Um, and even though I was in Toronto for two, three months, um, cuz I actually physically live in Taipei right now, we never actually touched, but at the same time, I would say she's been one of the more impactful people that have touched my life, [00:02:00] um, in the past, you know, 15 months since I had my baby.

    So I'm really excited to be here. Um, and this is a bit surreal, so

    Surabhi: thank you so much. It is very surreal because you are in the other part of the world from where we are for where from I am. It's evening where you are. It's morning where I am and you're so right. And I think the past two years have sped up that whole internet, online connection aspect of it.

    Because so many of us, prior to the pandemic, I wasn't really on Instagram. I hadn't started my own business. I hadn't been offering virtual services. It. This has exposed me to so many connections in a way that there never could have been before, which I'm very grateful for and I'm grateful that it's connected me back to you.

    I was thinking about that. I'm like, 15 years ago we lived in Ottawa. We were co-op students and we would dance, we would go out dancing, We would have fun. And here we are, we're now mothers and going through completely different experiences, but we still have that [00:03:00] fun and adventure still

    Sharon: I think you dance more than I do, but I'm

    Surabhi: I do,

    Sharon: I've been teaching my daughter how to boogie a bit with the shoulders, so she's getting loose in the upper body. I'm not kidding. I have a video

    Surabhi: Toddlers. Toddlers dancing is one of my favorite. It's just so adorable. Them crawling and them walking, dancing them doing anything is

    Sharon: I think the interesting thing too is that their body proportions are very, it's, it's in quarters, right? Their head is a quarter, their, uh, torso is a quarter and then they've got like a bit of a leg. So then they kind of literally look like a doll that moves in weird parts. It comes in and out and they're like a bodybuilder trying to, to boogie. Um, so I'm really enjoying it and definitely one day when if she gets married and showing that to embarrass her, it's

    Surabhi: Oh yeah. Take all the videos right now. Um, so tell me, Sharon, I wanna start with you and some of the things that stand out the most for me about you is the fact that you are an athlete. [00:04:00] Um, the fact that you're very strong both mentally and physically, and that your motherhood has not been like a lot of peoples, You've been traveling a lot, you've been living overseas in many different countries.

    You've had, you've also been kind of on your own quite a bit, right? You with kind of solo parenting and then co-parenting. So why don't you tell me a little bit about your life over the past 15 months and what that's been like?

    Sharon: Sure. I actually feel like it's, you always have to start with pregnancy, uh, as the whole journey and then add like nine to 10 months in front of it because it literally, like that's pregnancy was the slow crawl and then postpartum was the like, boom, here you are. New self. Go for it. Um, with zero coaching and zero basically rest.

    But, um, it's interesting that you mentioned, so I was actually quite, I wouldn't say reluctant, um, to participate, but when I saw the words mom strength, strangely my [00:05:00] initial reaction was, I'm not strong. Um, and I think that's something that a lot of moms and women, uh, you know, go through, which is we have this weird imposter syndrome, um, and the more someone tells us we are "x", which is some positive adjective, the more we shy away from that because some, some, you know, other reasons that we don't even discuss. But I remember thinking about that being like, What am I even strong about? And all my friends look at me and say, Are you kidding? ? Right. You've, you've done some hilariously odd things in life and you've done them with grace or with, um, amusement.

    But, uh, if I think back, um, my pregnancy was actually at a time, it was actually at sort of the, the early peaks of Covid. Um, I found out it was pregnant in, uh, October, 2020 and did all of it in, in kind of vacuum. So in Taiwan we were fairly shielded from the [00:06:00] virus, which I think is also unique in it of itself.

    Um, but it meant it was hard for people to come. and it was hard for me to get my community, which is in Canada, in the us, in Germany, in the uk. Um, I was suddenly cut off from all my friends and in fact, my mom wasn't even around for most of my pregnancy and my labor. So that was, that was def devastating to some degree.

    But I think at that time, you know, you were looking around thinking, woe is me. That's not that big of a deal when other people's family is, is going through death. So I would say pregnancy was actually a lot of repression and a lot of, um, Kind of ignoring the fact that I'm gonna be a mom, even though it's something that I've wanted to do for basically most of my life.

    I've never even questioned it. In fact, I used to actively encourage people to have children. Like if they said I'm not gonna have children, I'm like, But you guys are smart people. You have to have children. I

    Surabhi: you need to procreate. . [00:07:00] We need more like you. Yeah.

    Sharon: you, I would go on like a two hour, um, like timed sales pitch on why having children was a great idea.

    I'm not kidding. Um, I have

    Surabhi: You're that person going

    Sharon: I'm person. the Mormon. Anyway. but when it came to myself, it was terrifying because I think number one, I didn't have the support system. I didn't know and I'd build it. Um, and there were structural barriers. Like I could not fly to travel and have like a baby moon.

    Um, and my husband's family also didn't live in Taiwan. They were in Germany and the US so we were really solo right from the start. Um, And then there was also some, you know, minor language and cultural difficulties. And then on top of that I had a really intense work, um, situation that made me work sort of 10, 12 hours.

    And hormonally being all over the place made me try even harder to act like everything was normal. [00:08:00] So it was a setup for a perfect storm and then basically postpartum. And I wanna say my postpartum went at least 14 months. I think I just got out. Mentally, like three weeks ago, . But, um, postpartum was a rude awakening because I think most moms or even dads who have seen this, know that is just war.

    And it's war, unlike any book has ever prescribed. Um, and it's also a very, I wanna say conflicting messaging. Everyone's telling you, Wow, you have this precious, beautiful baby. Your life must be great. You must be so happy, and you have to put on this face. Um, and I, that's when I realized how, uh, maybe how in denial I was about actually becoming a mom.

    And so the identity change, um, just came crashing down. Part of it. I mean, I think from the outside everyone's like, Wow, you traveled so much. But [00:09:00] I traveled to get that community and, um, you know, I'm, I'm proud, but I don't think it's something to, to brag about. But we, we had spent actually three months in, in North America.

    In fact, maybe went from Canada to the US to a spontaneous trip to Mexico, um, where she fell off a couch, and like bruised her cheek. Um, so we had to take pictures only on one side. um, it's been a lot of that. And then we spent the summer in Europe, uh, also visiting my husband's family in Germany, a lot of my friends in, in France and, and, um, a couple weddings.

    And it was sort of my way to catch up on the last two years of isolation, um, because nobody had met my husband and my baby. And for them it was a bit of a, An adjustment as well to be like, this is my friend who's changed a lot. Um, so we all had to update each other physically in person. [00:10:00] And I think that's the, the cool part is that, you know, other than physiological changes and um, and dealing with the changes in the world and your personal identity, I think being a mom is also reconciling social changes that your single friends will no longer have any interest in your child's cute little twirl that they did this morning or, you know, the fact that you finally are able to run 10 kilometers.

    Um, and then your mommy friends who are a little bit, uh, ahead of you are like, Oh yeah, I don't remember what that was like. Sorry. Can't help you . So, um, I, I think, yeah, the theme I would say in terms of strength is, you know, anybody who can survive this is strong. I'm always so impressed. And I think the cool part that I found again is this, um, online network of mothers, um, girls who I maybe didn't connect with very well when we were single.[00:11:00]

    Um, all of a sudden they're moms and they have common issues and we talk to each other about it online. And, um, it's interesting, I only remember this this morning, uh, that I have a, a WhatsApp group of basically friends from 20 years and they're all just smooshed into this one group, and I can add you later and, um, and, and random topics come up and the ages, uh, of the children vary from, you know, eight months to eight years.

    So, yeah, I, I think that's just, it is that mom's strength is kind of the, the communal strength that we all have because there's no way one woman does it, you know, she has her village and she needs to get it.

    Surabhi: You know, going back to, I love some of the themes that kind of came up as you were talking is that whole pregnancy and being in denial because I felt that too. I've always wanted kids, I always knew I wanted to be a mother, but once we got pregnant, I [00:12:00] was kind of in denial that this was happening to me.

    I think if I had accepted, okay, my body is changing, I am more exhausted, I am more fatigued, I may have to work less and actually adapted my life to my pregnancy versus saying, I'm gonna ignore that this situation is happening in my body and just go on as if life is normal. And my first pregnancy was a, was pre pandemic, so life was going on as normal.

    I hated missing social things with friends cuz I was nauseous. The FOMO was real. Now, later I can recognize those were bigger themes of, you know, missing out and feeling left out. Those types of themes kept coming up, but, Pregnancy is sometimes the first time in our lives where we have lost control of our own bodies and someone else, something else is dictating how things are going and then postpartum, boom.

    That magnifies because you have a baby who's kind of ruling the house, you know when they wanna eat, they eat. When they wanna sleep, they sleep, or you, you have to help them sleep. Now what was it [00:13:00] like for you, because you gave birth in Taipei?

    Giving birth in Taipei

    Sharon: June, 2020 in Taipei, and it was actually the second wave. So, um, we had to do a PCR, we had to. Guess when we,

    Surabhi: 2021, right?

    Sharon: uh, Sorry, sorry. 2021. Sorry. Um, and we had to guess when we might deliver and do a PCR two days in advance,

    Surabhi: What?I

    Sharon: then if you didn't deliver, you'd have to do another PCR in your rolling two days in advance.

    Um, but I, I was fortunate that my husband could actually be there and that he was actually in the room, um, delivering room. But yeah, it was in Taipei. Um, I had a doula, a midwife, uh, sort of, sorry, the same person. Um, and I enlisted a very hippie, um, doctor, which is rare in, in Asia. They're, they're all usually all about intervention who had like a water tub, um, you know, where I'm going with this.

    And she was very much all about like [00:14:00] non-intervention and, and sometimes even hypno birthing. And after three days of. Latent contractions. She looked at me and she's like, I think a C-section. And I was like, Just do it

    Surabhi: Like, This baby needs to come out.

    Sharon: it's pretty funny because at the end of the day, um, I was so jealous of all of her case studies of these women who just plopped a baby in the water, no tearing, and then was, had these beautiful moments and pictures and here I was, you know, maybe probably the most high strung woman out there, um, forcing herself to have a water birth.

    So I would say, I mean this is the universe and the karmic, um, forces telling me like I wasn't ready. Right? It wasn't my birth to have. And then I've definitely reconciled with it cuz um, if it wasn't for the C-section, I wouldn't have needed a lot of work in recovering as much, I think, and then we wouldn't have connected.

    So it all works out.

    Surabhi: It all works [00:15:00] out, and I love that there is, I think there is often a mourning period when things don't go the way you anticipate during your birth, whether it's an unplanned c-section or an unplanned intervention. Um, and I think it's important to go, go through that process and then reconcile, right?

    Sometimes we, we don't even talk about it after, like it never happened. We don't talk about the disappointment or, um, how things impact us now. So I'm glad that you reconciled that experience. And I've had that situation come up with other moms where they planned a birthing, birthing suite, everything, and then they end up having an unplanned C-section.

    Sometimes that's just the way the, the way it happens. And the thing with birth is it's not you and your body. It's you, your body and baby and baby's body. And luck in whatever else happens. And despite all that, you have done so incredibly well. Like, I, I can't remember when we started working together. I think you were only a few months postpartum

    Sharon: [00:16:00] Four or five months. Yeah.

    Surabhi: Yeah. And your c-section recovery like you, You did amazing. You did incredible. I

    Sharon: At first I couldn't even get off of the bed, like roll off the bed properly. And I remember, I mean, I couldn't even do random. No, I, I can't, I actually can't remember doing any yoga poses without paint. That's when I remember being like, I, I think I remember after my first yoga session at six weeks postpartum, I just cried.

    I was like, I can't, I can't plank. And my husband's like, Do you want me to show you a video of your C-section? He videotaped, um, or, So, yeah, he had his phone in his hand, so he videoed parts of it, the, the extraction. And I

    Surabhi: Good for him.

    Sharon: please don't show it to me. And he would threaten to remind, to show it to me if I tried overload it.

    Surabhi: Well, there's research that shows that the abdominal fascia takes nine to 12 months [00:17:00] to recover fully. Right? So post-surgical. So you can imagine you said about 14 months you started to feel like you were out of that postpartum. It makes sense, right?

    Why 6 weeks postpartum is just the start

    Surabhi: But that conflicting information that you were talking about, that you're like, you know, one, one person says this, one person says that a lot of people will say six weeks is postpartum recovery. And you're like, But this is just like, why am I not better? Why can't I do yoga? Why can't I do the things that I wanna do at six weeks?

    And part of, you know, my mission is educating people that six weeks is just the beginning. It is just the start. And. Within a few, couple sessions of working together, you were suddenly doing like so many different strength exercises for your core and pelvic floor and and whole body. Like literally. I remember within a couple sessions you just needed the guidance and a lot of people just need the guidance cuz their bodies are like, Your body's amazing at healing.

    All of our bodies are exceptional healers. If they are guided down the right path.

    Pressure to bounce back and hating her body

    Sharon: I think. We timed [00:18:00] it okay because it was the dead of winter. Um, so there was no social pressure to show off this body. just baggy sweaters. Um, a lot of alone time sitting there, working out while watching the falling snow. Um, and I think a part of me, I would be honest to say that I was more motivated then than I am say at present day, um, because I feel a little bit like my body's, um, returned to some level that I'm comfortable with.

    Whereas then I hated this body. Um, and I was grasping at straws at whatever I could. And I think one thing also to add, um, For those who aren't super familiar with sort of the Asian, um, mentality, is that there is not a lot of physiotherapy available, especially for pelvic floor. In fact, I don't even think they talk about it.

    Um, as part of labor, they just kind of draw lines and say, this is where you go. [00:19:00] Um, but uh, there's, I've found only two people in all of Taiwan that has proper, um, pelvic floor physiotherapy, understanding that they learned from Canada and the us. Um, and so just the lack of knowledge was also frustrating and everybody just would say, you know, put on the band or go do Pilates, or my doctor was even saying the age old adage, uh, however long it takes for you to be pregnant will be however long it takes for you to give back.

    Mm-hmm.

    Surabhi: be misleading too because it can take a lot longer than nine months. Or for some people that's like not even close to how long it takes. So, and recovery doesn't have to happen just on its own. It can be done with support, even mental health. Right? We talk about mental health support too.

    Our mental health will improve as you're sleeping better and as you're out of that fresh postpartum phase where you're anxious about everything cuz you're a first time new mom, but it doesn't mean you [00:20:00] have to go at it alone. Um, a lot of, in, in a lot of Asian countries, like I know in India too, like that belly banding or like that, you

    know, wrap it back to your body.

    Like this is like a worldwide phenomena. This bounce back culture and this pressure to get back. And I think more so often in Asian cultures where, you know, having this aesthetic is even more revered. Right. Um, how did you feel? I love that you said too, that you didn't feel the pressure in the winter. You can wear clothes that you were kind of comfortable in.

    The unexpected benefits of motherhood in the pandemic

    Surabhi: And that is also something I noticed with the pandemic and being a new mom in the pandemic, you weren't pressured to socialize, so there wasn't as much pressure to put on a nice outfit to suck in your abs because you're around friends. You could just kinda let your body heal the

    way it was meant to. Now you

    Sharon: Interesting.

    Surabhi: I, I definitely see because I noticed that with my second, I had my second in September of 2020. He just turned two yesterday. Um, [00:21:00] And yeah, I was like, I don't feel pressure to go out to these mommy groups every week. I'm like, I could just stay at home and like honor my baby's schedule.

    Like what? Like that's what should have been doing with my first. But I did feel pressure with my first to attend these mommy groups every week and go take her to every music class and every baby, baby art class. that wasn't, that wasn't for her. Babies don't need that. They don't need to be taken around to every class.

    They need connection with their mom and dad or whoever is their main caregivers. They just need. One on one connection and attention. They don't need 18 billion people to, you know, do art with or or whatnot. They need experiences and connection and I wish that I knew that with my first, but our society, the way it is, is, you know, the pressure to have the clean house and have all the cute baby photos and matching clothes and go to all the mom groups.

    And I felt, I felt into that trap with my first, and it was so nice with my second that I didn't have to choose cuz [00:22:00] nothing was there cuz it was the pandemic and now I can parent the way I actually want to and it is authentic to me.

    Authenticity in parenting

    Surabhi: We talked about that a little bit before we, you know, hopped on the call about authenticity in parenting. Can you talk a little bit about that and how that has impacted you in the past year and a half

    Sharon: Oh, um, that is a really good question because I think it's an ongoing question. Um, because as I evolve to maybe be more authentic or, or change who I am or, or sort of, uh, settle into my, my identity, then I can be more of an authentic parent. But then also the child changes. So it's two people dancing separately.

    So I actually have to credit my husband with a lot of, um, righting me to the center because I think in, in some ways I wanted to be that mom who took my kid to the mommy group who, you know, had everything, you know, beautiful clothes, um, super [00:23:00] expensive or a diaper changing station, doing all that stuff. Um, but number one, I was caught off guard so I didn't have the time to purchase it all.

    number two, I was in Asia, so everything was kind of cutesy and, and weird. So I actually rejected it, which is good. Um, but then my husband actually, I think he was raised fairly authentic as well, um, as an immigrant in Germany. Um, and he was always, , why don't we just see what the kid's comfortable with? Um, and why don't we just observe her and be more sensitive to her needs instead of just just shoving things in her face and whatever.

    From Type A to super chill

    Sharon: Um, and, and we obviously had conflict around that because, and I loved telling this story. I was, uh, I was three months postpartum. It was this house and, um, she was not sleeping according to schedule. And I was already thinking, Okay, we are gonna start sleep training at three months. I was a type A mom for the first six months and then I revert, and [00:24:00] now I'm super chill.

    Um, so it's been a bit of a rollercoaster and I remember she woke up in the middle of the night, uh, she wasn't taking milk and just, it was three months old and I sat her on the couch and I said it in English. Get it together. Get it together right now! i think it was like two in the morning

    Surabhi: delirious mom talking,

    Sharon: as I

    Surabhi: talking. We all have been there. Yeah.

    Sharon: been But as soon as I said that, my husband just laughing. He was just like, She's three months old. What do you like? What does that even mean? And also can you hear yourself? And that humor also got me laughing cuz I was like, Oh. What, what am I even trying to do? Right. But I would say that's when I realized, hey, you know, like none of this matters.

    It's health, it's stimulation and inputs, and then it's, it's that [00:25:00] presentness and loving and, and just kind of play. Um, and, and everything else. I mean, obviously you want really good toothpaste or

    Surabhi: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Sharon: and all that, all the like health ish

    things. Um, and like

    Surabhi: Vitamin D and this and that. Yeah.

    Sharon: uh, pacifier and all these like things they upsell you on by the way.

    Um, so I, these days I very much am always thinking like, okay, a hundred years ago, how would they raise this baby so that it has a life expectancy of at least 50, um, . And if I can just take that and then the scary current parent and I meet in the middle, then it should be okay. Um, and thinking about it like, uh, we actually interviewed a nanny today.

    She was like, Wow, this kid is very like, friendly, observant, pretty easygoing. Oh, she sleeps like very according to schedule. Cool. Like, you guys have, have somewhat done well and I thought to myself, yeah, I [00:26:00] mean, it's been a 15 month learning experience because I've never had to co-live, co-parent, co-work and, and, and co travel with my little family like this.

    Um, and I think it's exacerbated by the fact that we're both stay at home parents.

    Surabhi: Right.

    Sharon: Um, and then the travel bit made us have to peel away all the externalities and say, Okay, if we were to just be in a continent like Europe for four months, what do we actually need other than a crib, some clothes and maybe formula everywhere we go.

    right? Oh yeah. Diapers.

    Surabhi: Yeah,

    Sharon: Um, so I think that's been, I think the circumstances, but then also just me hitting a wall and then realizing, okay, I have to corner, um, force me to be a bit more authentic with, with parenting. Um, and now it's actually really easy as you said, Like we can shed all these expectations and just kind of be, [00:27:00] um, and the result is happy kids.

    Pretty chill. Happy

    Why Type A moms hit the wall and burn out faster

    Surabhi: I think that, It helps to be the type A high strung mom initially because you hit that wall faster. I hit that wall fast too, and so people, I talk, I talk to moms who have 10 year olds and they haven't hit that wall yet, they're still living an inauthentic life. They're still doing all the huge birthday parties, huge everything for these kids, and they're not happy doing it.

    They're dreading doing these things and I'm like, But why are you doing that? It's not for the kid. It's for you to show off to your friends. It is not for that child, but I think in some ways it helps to be these like overachiever, cuz we overachieve that first few months and then we hit a wall and we're like, we can't sustain this anymore.

    We have

    to. Something has to give, Something has to change.

    Outsourcing parenting

    Sharon: Well, so the interesting thing is I've observed these overachieving moms and, and again, no judgment, they do what they do. Um, I think society needs that. Like it's all a balance. Um, I think it's okay to share [00:28:00] this, uh, I don't think she's listening, but the former CEO of Yahoo, Marissa Myers, um, was famous for putting the crib her a crib in, of her first child in her CEO office and having her nanny, um, like.

    I think six weeks postpartum. Um, because she was one of the first high profile tech CEOs, and she felt like she couldn't, she couldn't slack, you know, she was hired, um, and to, to turn Yahoo around, et cetera. Um, years later, I've, I've spoken to some people who are close friends with her and, and see her socially.

    Um, and they told me that she has three nannies, one per child, so she has three kids. Um, two of them are twins, and the twins each have a nanny.

    And that's how you're able to achieve that. Um, but again, is that, is it really parenting if you're not there? Parenting, [00:29:00] Um, and you're just sort of wearing the label?

    Yeah. Well, and, and again, right? Uh, I outsource like cleaning. Um, now, and, and I think Taiwan's easier because we literally,

    Surabhi: the norm

    Sharon: every o. Yeah. And every other meal we eat out. Um, but we, we select, um, good food. But it's like, I think the intimate connection with a child is hard. It's hard to say you're parenting if you don't do that anymore, and that you're teaching them how to be authentic if you are not actually present.

    Um, and so coming back to, I think being a co-parent for the last 15 months with just my husband, and then occasionally help from our, our mothers has taught me really how difficult or how easy it can be if you are easy on yourself.

    Surabhi: Wow. That's powerful, right? Is if you are, if you ch, and it's a choice. I think it is a choice we make to be easy on yourselves or to go easy on ourselves, or to [00:30:00] be constantly hard and judging every action that we do. One thing that I've realized is in US, especially there is no maternity leave. We talked a little bit about that.

    So mothers feel this pressure to go back to work financially, they might have to, and then parenting is outsourced quite early on when that baby is still making a huge developmental change and connection with the outside world. They're trying to figure out who are my main people, and then unfortunately they don't get to see their mom or dad or parents because their parents have to work.

    And you know, I'm in Canada. Luckily we have 18 up to 18 months of maternity leave. Assuming you are an employee, you might have employment insurance if that's enough for you. So many people are now taking 18 months. I took 15 months with my first one, with my second one. It was really interesting because I was at home, so I was kind of like, I worked a little bit part-time.

    I was at home. Both my husband and I were home. My husband took. Six months off. And that was, I [00:31:00] think first time he got it. He got what I had been going through as a new mom because it's, you know, that example that you shared with you telling your baby, you know, get it together. I think every mom will connect with that and it's, it's easier for dads to be like, Well, what's going on?

    Like, chill out. Because they're not the ones typically day in and day out doing every feed, doing everything. And oftentimes they can go and sit at a desk or go out outside and work and then they come back. So that's what my husband did with my first child. So in the evenings he would come home? Yes, he'd be tired too, but I was mentally and emotionally drained.

    I had a baby that didn't sleep the way I planned for her to sleep. and. It was hard! With my second, he got a taste of like, Wow, this is really hard, full-time parenting. And I, I think it's been the best thing for our relationship, to be honest, is both of us going through it together so that we both have more empathy for each other's situation.

    Moms experiencing burnout

    Surabhi: You know, I see a lot of [00:32:00] moms doing the brunt of the parenting and the household work still to this day in 2022, and I'm talking educated moms with good jobs and you know, they're still doing all of the other stuff and it's no wonder moms are still burnt out and so exhausted and then the child suffers.

    Right. I love your, One of the things that you were talking about is, you know, it sounds like you also have a better idea or more clear idea of your values and that you value that time to play with your child, to connect with your child in a way that you couldn't do if you were back at work. Right.

    Sharon: So it's interesting because, um, while I was gearing up for labor, um, I started, so I've done meditation on and off. It's not the most consistent hobby, but, um, I do practice visualization and so I was like visualizing labor. I was visualizing postpartum, um, breastfeeding and all that stuff. and then strangely enough.

    As I was [00:33:00] doing that, I think this was about three weeks before I gave birth, um, I visualized missing out on all of my baby's milestones because of this intense job. And I remember thinking to myself, maybe that's just like how I'm going to go through it as a career woman, which is really tragic. Um, and, and strangely enough I did Miss , my baby crawling for the first time, um, because I was at a work conference.

    Um, but I was there for her first stand. I was there for her first, um, like, uh, independent steps, um, without any assistance. Cause she had held onto our hands for a little bit longer. Um, and. Looking back, obviously I don't regret a single thing. And it's so strange that I had resigned to it being the case that I wouldn't be there because I had to choose one or the other.

    And that's maternity leave and it's power. Right? [00:34:00] Um, and all the mothers who basically have to pump and go through all of that, like also kudos to them because it's so extra to have to do that while you're working. Um, and to suppress your body's natural, um, need to nourish your child, right? How artificial and how sort of messed up is that?

    Social judgment for taking maternity / parental leave

    Sharon: And, and I think that's another thing is that as a Canadian, I thought that was the average. I thought 12 months was, was what everybody else did, you know? Um, and now that I've worked in Europe, I've worked in Asia, um, definitely not the case. And even though European countries seem very liberal, Four to six months is tops for most places, um, maternity and paternity.

    Um, and then in Asia, I mean, two to four months is pushing it. Um, but governments are trying to change it, but it doesn't matter because policy does not overrule [00:35:00] social judgment. And in Asia it's more so like you are a lazy woman. Um, and, and you know, there's fear of being fired, et cetera. It's just terrible.

    And it's actually female bosses doing it to female employees because they were the ones that, um, were subjected to this torture when they were young. So they don't see why they have to make exception for the next generation.

    Surabhi: They don't wanna be part of the change cuz they're like, Hey, I suffered. You're gonna suffer through too. I saw this in my, my old workplace too. Not, not necessarily in the same kind of judgment, but just in how I was treated as soon as I announced my pregnancy and how they were giving preferential treatment to others who weren't pregnant.

    Right. Especially the male that I worked with. And it's unfor. It's really unfortunate because this still happens and you're so right. It's not just policy. Everyone is fighting for longer mat. Better Mali. It's not just that, it's about implementation. What, how are we [00:36:00] gonna actually implement that? When the culture says that you're a lazy woman, that you're a bad employee, that you, you obviously are now this, you know, weak, weak weak woman, cuz you're now just just a mother and you can't also be a ceo.

    You can't also be a boss. You can't also be a worker. And why do we have to choose, right? Like why do we have to choose between one and the other? Because we're forced to. We're forced to because of this, you know, again, societal judgment and standards. I've had clients, like one of my clients is Canadian and she moved to the US and luckily worked for Canadian company.

    So she got a 12 month mat leave and she said that every mom in her, she lives in San Diego area in the bay and everyone else is like back at work. And she's like, it was so weird because people were like, Why are you taking so much time off? Aren't you gonna be bored? And she's like, What's not bored, like taking care of a child is hard work and you're not, You're never really, like, of course you can be bored in the sense that you [00:37:00] miss talking to other adults, or you miss some aspects of thinking and doing the work that you do,

    but it's not like it's a vacation,

    you know?

    Comparing maternity leave to sick leave

    Sharon: No, and I like to compare it with sick leave. Um, lots of companies have very generous sick leave where they, you know, will help you pay, like, give you full compensation for taking time off to say like, treat whatever illness you have. Be it 2, 3, 4 months or five or six because you've contributed to this workplace already, right?

    So it's kind of a right for you to be able to draw a little bit of that in because you are doing something hard and you're, you're healing your body. Um, how is it that, you know, maternity leave is completely different. It's as if, okay, you got a gift, it's your child, therefore we can't give you more, you know, help there.

    Um, which is a very strange way to see it. So I, I always question bosses when they, you know, refu that say, Oh, but a woman going on leave is [00:38:00] financially impactful for the company. And I was like, Yes, but so is someone who's sick. But how come you have sympathy for sickness and not sympathy for raising a life which actually has greater value to society at large?

    How a society treats their mothers and why USA is failing moms

    Surabhi: You're, you're creating the future and you are literally Yeah I you know, you can say a lot about how a society is and how they treat their mothers. That's, that's what I think is how does a society treat women and mothers with respect? Or do they dismiss them and say, Okay, you're no longer valuable.

    You know, when, when countries like the US have, I, I, I speak about

    the US cuz it's closer to here than, and I'm more familiar

    Sharon: but it's also

    Surabhi: so

    Sharon: highest GDP. Um, and then lowest sort of maternity policy,

    taxation is still high. That's another thing, right? If your taxes are high, but you're not getting any social benefits out of it, isn't that a little bit silly?

    Surabhi: It's like, what? But they still call themselves the best country and the [00:39:00] best everything. But I'm like, but, but the most basic things you're not getting, like, let's, let's fix that. Let's improve that. Um, what do you find is you, you met, you told me a story about your, your friend or somebody you had met at a wedding.

    Can you share that story with me? You know, about the pressure

    Sharon: Yes, this was actually two weekends ago. Um, so, and, and again, this is, I think the, the tail end of another anecdote on maternity leave. Um, but I, uh, was recently in Bali for a wedding, and yes, again, my husband's solo parented and allowed me to go and frolic in the rice fields of Ubu. Um, and I attended a wedding and, uh, one of the hosts, uh, is a Indonesian and she's from a really wealthy family.

    Um, in fact, her family owned that resort chain that we were staying at. Um, and she's the eldest daughter. And you know, Indonesian press have called her princess, she's at that level of socialite and she was pregnant with, with [00:40:00] her second. And I was like, Oh, congratulations. When are you due? Et cetera, having the usual catch up.

    Um, and when maternity leave came up and she said she was only taking six weeks off. And I, I remember asking again like six weeks or six months, she's like, No, no, six weeks. And then she looked at her husband who works in management consulting and was like, He's getting more, he's getting two months. . And I remember being like,

    You guys are, you can very much afford to take time off, but because you are afraid of setting an example for your employees and making sure they don't take time off so you won't take time off either.

    And I, that's when I realized it's, it's so pervasive throughout all of that society, um, to really not honor sort of the changes that a woman goes through. And I mean, the fact that you get two months of paternity leave yet, you know, one and a half of maternity is mind [00:41:00] blowing. Um, and, and that's, and I looked at her and, and I could tell there was more she wanted to tell me, but obviously in her position, um, she couldn't let down her guard.

    And that shocked me so much. And, and if, if I could one day work in public policy, that would be honestly one of the main things that I would advocate for, because I think. I mean, it's just like birth control. I think once you change that policy, the cascading effects throughout society for 50% of the population is gonna be significant.

    And you might see more children being born just because mothers could finally, mentally afford it as well.

    Unsupportive jobs and unfair preference for men

    Surabhi: Yeah, it's true because the pressure, a lot of, um, the people I know in Toronto have had trouble. They delay having a child because of work. And that's, to me, it's actually sad because if your, if your life's goal is to have a child, but you're delaying it because of the job that you [00:42:00] have, because they're not gonna support you or you're gonna lose your position, how many men are having to delay that? You know, They're not impacted in the same

    Sharon: They usually get promotions, because they're, they're more loyal, they'll stay longer, et cetera. It's like they're now a family

    Surabhi: Exactly. more trustworthy. And I, I even saw this with my husband, you know, he would work, he would be, um, late for work in the morning, not late, but, you know, he can kind of be flexible with his hours and nobody would be upset at him. And I'm like, if I was late, I have a different job. I'm client based.

    So it's of course a little different. But even still as a woman being late to their job, I remember I worked with a woman. Who has three kids and she had a relatively high position in her company and she's like, Honestly, I came in late one day because my kid had an appointment and the receptionist said to me, made a snarky comment like, Oh, nice of you to show up.

    And she's like, Are you kidding me? I am here every single day earlier than all of these other men. I have three children. And I, she like lost it. And I'm This is how we treat [00:43:00] women even when they're in positions of power.

    And so how are

    Why women treat each other like $hit

    Sharon: But I think that's just the strange part is that women do this to each

    Surabhi: know they do

    Sharon: I've never understood it. Men are

    now afraid to do it because they're afraid of, you know, whatever lawsuit we'll throw at them. So at least we've muzzled population, but women are actually more emboldened, uh, to some degree to be nasty to each other, which I still, and that's why I do love the idea of having more podcasts and, and sort of community building online, um, because that's how you magnify the message and at least make other women feel supported, um, because they do get beaten up by other women, which I find very frustrating.

    Um, but I would say the silver lining of now becoming a mother wise, Is that I have more to talk to fathers about. Do you know what I mean? Um, maybe before, [00:44:00] uh, they would see me as a, maybe a good looking whatever, sales girl, but now I get to be like, I have a child. This is my role. You know? What about your children?

    How, you know? And, and it's interesting. It's a form of connection, but it also earns their respect almost

    Surabhi: I, Oh, I agree. If I drop, sometimes I show up to a store and they think, I, they think, I think they think I'm a kid. Like I look kind of young

    Sharon: you're

    Surabhi: hoodie, a backpack, right? And then I'll just drop, Oh yeah, my kids are, and then immediately I get more respect. Right? It's like, but why do, why should we have to say that?

    But, you know, I get it. I respect mothers a whole lot because you know what we're going through. Um, but it's true. I also find that there are a lot of women like us who don't want to treat other. Crap just because we've been treated like crap, right? Just because someone's made a comment to me. I don't wanna then go and shit on somebody else just because that's been what I've expected or re uh, received. And I think that it takes courage to step outside of what's been [00:45:00] thrown at us in the past. I see a lot of the times it's the grams of the family who are judging the, the women for not having a clean house because she could do it. Why can't you? Or the months, right? Oh, I, I handle five kids. How come you're struggling with one?

    It's the women of the family who are often shaming or judging, and it's, it's harsh, but we need to let that go. We need to let go of that judgment and set boundaries around what kind of, you know, messaging will tolerate. Because frankly, no friends, no family's ever saying to me anything now because

    I've

    Sharon: Mm.

    Surabhi: gained that experience and been able to set that boundary around what, what treatment is accept, acceptable to me, and what conversations are acceptable.

    Right?

    Sharon: So translation, they're afraid of you, , and

    Surabhi: that's That's, how I want it to be. Right? That's how I want it to be. Because that's, they're, they're, they fear or they respect men immediately.

    I want them to have that for me too, and going to demand that, and I'm not gonna accept anything less. And I think [00:46:00] as a new mom, you are so insecure.

    Every new mom is so insecure. Do my children love me? Am I a good mom? Am I doing the best for them? Could could somebody else do it better? Oh, why am I so bad at this? All of those thoughts I've had, I'm. Every mom has challenged these, you know, these thoughts and experiences, but at some point we have to come out of it and know innately that like we are obviously the best moms for our children.

    So whatever decisions we make for them are going to be the best ones or they're gonna be the right ones at, at that given time. And when we know better, we can do better. You know, there are, there are things about my first postpartum that I would love to go back and change, but I know I can't. And those experiences made me stronger.

    Just like they've made you stronger. And you, you were talking about your mom strength and not really recognizing what it was and then kind of realizing, oh, like I do have a lot of strengths.

    Forgiving yourself for making mistakes

    Sharon: So it's funny because, um, I remember as soon as we, I think three, four months out, um, of, uh, during postpartum, my husband we're like, Okay, we need to come up with a list of all the [00:47:00] things that we would do better with number two. And then I remember like Do better, but it's gonna be a completely different situation, a different We're, we're gonna be different financially, hopefully, and different mentally. Like there's no optimizing this problem. He's an engineer. I'm an engineer. So we both started to get nerdy about like, okay, here, here are the ways

    Surabhi: Get your spreadsheets out.

    Yeah.

    Sharon: but, um, at the end of the day, I think it's also that like, forgiving yourself for making a mistake once in a while, forgiving yourself for, uh, like breaking down just because you know you got triggered.

    Um, or letting your child be upset at you for doing something horrible. Um, and realizing that like it's, it's the long. .

    Surabhi: Yes.

    Sharon: You know, eventually these things will be little specks of sand and it's the big picture that you'll be able to achieve. I mean, I don't remember the trauma that I [00:48:00] maybe experienced as a two year old.

    Um, but I definitely remember it when I'm 12 or when I'm 15 and a little bit older. Right. So I think it's the key is just to be consistent or try, um, and if you fail, that's okay. Just keep trying.

    Surabhi: And I think there's a beauty in your children watching your, your evolution as a mom too, because they're there for it. They, they won't remember what two years old was like, but they'll remember the feeling of safety that they had. They'll remember how you made them feel. And I think about that because I feel like I, I wasn't present enough for a part of my child, children's childhood, even though I was physically here.

    Mentally I wasn't present. And that's hard. It's hard to, A lot of moms struggle with being present because they're overly drained, overly exhausted. I'm now two years postpartum, and I can say I can be present now. I'm not overly exhausted, even if I have a bad night here and there more consistently, I'm having good nights.

    But a year ago I wasn't there yet. You know? So sometimes we're trying [00:49:00] rush the process and get to that stage, but it takes time to get there. It takes time to get out

    Sharon: that brain fog is so annoying. . Um, you know, I was popping supplements, I was doing all the workouts, I was trying to sleep as much as possible. But the moment it shifted, and like I said, it was a couple weeks ago, I think, when the fog actually became clear, um, and it felt like putting on glasses, I was like, wow.

    Man, it, it, it really just was time. Um, and unfortunately, I think the older you get, uh, I'm almost 40, um, and I'd love to have another child before I'm 40. Um, knock on wood, but, but like I can imagine how it's always just gonna be longer and harder. Um, if I don't keep myself, you know, healthy, eat well, sleep well, et cetera.

    Um, and, and that's the strange part is that people underestimate, um, the, the state of your body prior to pregnancy has to be [00:50:00] quite good. Um, and even then, going back to, you know, calling me an athlete, I would actually never call myself an athlete, even though all my friends would be

    Surabhi: Um,

    like, okay, ultramarathon. Like, can, can you tell

    me about some of

    Sharon: I've only done

    Surabhi: 2

    can you tell me what kinds of activities you used to do before and, and what, what are, Tell me about running too. I wanna hear about, I wanna hear about that cuz that's something to celebrate I

    Sharon: I think the interesting thing is that the reason why I don't identify as an athlete is because I didn't, um, I didn't compete in it a lot in, in, say high school or college or collegiate sports. Um, I, I, I kind of came to it after university and when, when I realized that, hey, you know, I have all this time after work, um, what am I gonna do?

    And also everybody around me was a runner. Um, so it was like a mild social pressure, but also it was fun. And um, I would say, you know, I did it for the community, um, which I think a lot of people find strange because [00:51:00] running, like cycling and swimming is a

    Surabhi: Endurance Solo sport.

    Yeah.

    Sharon: Yeah. But it, when you do it with people, it's actually like double the high,

    Surabhi: It's

    Sharon: because you're like struggling through 10 hours with

    Surabhi: like, I made it with these people. These people are my, like my people

    You know? You just feel that

    Sharon: And so, um, I mean I think the height of it is, and I'm happy to plug them, is a, a running group called Midnight Runners. Um, no, they don't run at midnight, but they do run at night and they're, um, they were founded in London, but now they're in North America, Europe, and South America. Um, and I ran a lot with them when I lived in Berlin.

    And that was my, my tribe. You know, they were, uh, a very easygoing artists, um, scientists, uh, management consultants, like they were from all walks of of life. But we all came together for some a common love, um, and you. With the group, it was like a little bit of a, an addiction. We would [00:52:00] be like, What's the next race we're all going to run.

    Is motherhood like a marathon?

    Sharon: Um, so I ran the Berlin Marathon, uh, twice. Um, I did two ultras, one in Farrow Islands, one in Italy. Um, it was mostly the travel and the running, um, and then the pain afterwards, and then the high of the next one. Um, and I, I think the interesting thing is when I saw motherhood as an endurance activity, It frightened me because there was no end.

    Whereas I think with athletic endeavors, there's a training cycle, everything's in control, and when you peak at your race, you're done and you recover. Um, it's all completely predictable. Whereas motherhood is a unpredictable endurance race that's longer than anything you've ever done. Um, and you're gonna wanna quit many times and nobody else is gonna let you quit

    Surabhi: motherhood is, a relationship. I think that's the

    difference is

    like with [00:53:00] athleticism, it's, it is a relationship, but it's with yourself. And motherhood is a relationship with you and yourself and

    your child,

    Right. And

    Sharon: And your partner,

    So it's three relationships,

    Surabhi: It's, relationships are, I think, the hardest things we have right To communication.

    We have to learn. Like I'm still working on communicating with my partner and I'm like, how is this still a thing we're working on? But it's still always gonna be a thing we're working on. Just like motherhood is constantly evolving and I, I think we can draw as endurance athletes, a lot of our resilience from athleticism.

    Maybe like you have a lot of resilience and mental toughness from those things that you've And you can always, I always say, Use, draw the the confidence that you have in one area of your life into another life. Because when my kid had that first challenge at daycare, it crushed me.

    It like, I broke down. I never felt a pain. So hard as when like you see your child struggling with something that you're like, I did not [00:54:00] anticipate this. I did not expect this to happen. So early on I thought we'd be dealing this with this in school, but then you learn. I learned from that and then I, I'm a stronger mom because of it.

    I'm better at being her mom. I know how to support her through that, and I know how to advocate for her. So there's so many things that we get thrown into and don't anticipate, but I truly think that if we allow ourselves. The time and the like, the pause and not having to urgently fix it all right away and knowing that it is an kind of evolution in a journey.

    I think we do, we do come out of it stronger. And so let me, let me know now, now that you are postpartum, we, you've been share, you shared with me a while ago that you're like, I'm so proud of myself. I

    just did this run. Tell me about that. Tell me about how

    that felt.

    Sharon's recovery after C-section

    Sharon: Um, Wow. I mean, I remember the first time I walked after the C-section, I think it was maybe like a week, like real walking, not just between bed and the bathroom. Um, and I [00:55:00] walked. For 10 minutes and it was the slowest walking I've ever done in my life. And I'm a very fast walker. And, and again, I broke down in tears with my husband who was like holding me steadily and I was like, I barely made it from one street block.

    Like I will never run again. I said this and he just laughed as he does with my drama. Um, ,it was very dramatic. It was ridiculous. Um, and he's like, It's okay. Like every day, you know, we'll just time you if this is how you wanna be neurotic Um, and I remember timing myself to be like, Okay, I'm faster at walking, but I still could not run everything hurt.

    Um, I didn't have my core. And when we started working together, I was running on icy, snowy paths, in Canada. And I remember being like, Well, this is the worst condition to test out your new body. Um, and again, it was probably a blessing because it meant I couldn't go fast. I [00:56:00] was, I was inhibited by the weather.

    Um, and I had to be careful not to slip in, like destroy my body. Um, so as a result, I think I just built a lot of base because I was told to be patient. Um, and I also forced myself, um, to just do that. And I mean, this summer, basically a year postpartum, um, I've done a lot of hiking, I did a lot of trail running.

    Um, and, and there have been, again, it's a bit inconsistent. A couple of runs where I've done, I think about seven or eight K faster than I've ever run that distance, and I would consider that distance a little bit longer than 5k, which is super cool. And I wonder if some of it was just like, you know, I quit drinking and, and basically have just been living healthier, um, and eating with my child, right?

    Like making sure it's low salt, whatever. Um, and just in general, [00:57:00] uh, all of the work and all of the patients in recovering, because I have been told, um, especially for, for athletes that go through really bad injuries that if you recover well, you might actually come back even stronger. Um, so,

    Working together through virtual care

    Surabhi: we can use recovery and pregnancy. I think pregnancy and postpartum is beautiful for runners because it isn't a chance for you to reset your body. All of those bad habits you had in training, all of those weakness you had in your stabilizers, you get to work on that now and that's what we did.

    We worked on your hips, we worked on some of those stabilizing muscles and you, you did the work. And that's the thing is you did the work, you put in the time, you allowed your body the time to recover and you were consistent. Remember doing a session with you when you were in like Mexico, when you were traveling for work.

    And I think that is the beauty of you were consistently doing it and then when you did get back to running, you didn't just say, I'm gonna go do a 10 K right away. You took it gradually, you took it step by step. And when people do that, you do come back and you do often [00:58:00] come back even stronger, even more resilient to future injuries, even despite being older or you know, maybe your body's heavier than before, still stronger.

    Sharon's advice to the average or high achieving athlete

    Sharon: So actually if I could give any advice to like really, and I wasn't high achieving, but. Average athletes, um, who, who then go through motherhood and have a hard time, is that you actually now, like in the postpartum, more than ever, you have to be so sensitive to every part that your body's going through and just stop if you can't do it anymore, and there's no shame, right?

    Like this is the only time where you get to be like, I have zero expectations. Um, it's me and my former self just every day having that relationship and building that back up again. Because I remember there were terrible runs where I was like, It's been 10 minutes, I'm done. I'm just gonna walk the rest of it because I don't feel right.

    And by pushing, I really think I might reinjure or it, it just [00:59:00] doesn't feel right. So I think again, by circumstance, by being super type A and then crashing , um, I'm now realizing, okay, just, it's okay. It's all relative. Let go.

    Surabhi: And I think that there is a lot you can learn from setbacks or those hard days where you're like, I can't, I didn't, you know, I can't do it. You, you learn about yourself. Right? And not every day is going to be, not every run is gonna be fantastic. There's gonna be setbacks or I don't even like to call them

    setbacks cuz they're just learning opportunities.

    Sharon: Yeah. But the thing that I think also helped is that I actually stopped comparing myself to other athletic moms who. Did their first marathon six months after. Um, there's a woman, Sophie Powers, who I, I follow, She was the one who did U T M B and was breastfeeding while running like a hundred k. I don't You've seen, you have to, I'll send you the photo. Um, on, she's on her, She, she had her three kids and it was her third kid. [01:00:00] Um, and she advocates for race deferral for women in postpartum. She could not defer. It was, um, it's U T M B Ultra Trail Mont Blanc, which is very prestigious trail. So she had to run it and breastfeed at the same time.

    And so actually recently, I think a couple of marathons, um, thanks to her advocating and, and, and sort of pushing, have said, Okay, race deferral for postpartum has to happen for women because it's not fair. They're already at a disadvantage and some push through, but some

    Surabhi: you're a huge risk of injury too. Your

    bone

    Sharon: there is that.

    Surabhi: is like,

    is and like I sometimes think too, we glorify people who do things like that because I mean, she was, I think, trying to prove a point too, but we sometimes look to athletes, pro athletes or you know, those exceptional mommy influencers fitfluencers who do bounce back or do get back.

    But those are not the norms. And who's to say that [01:01:00] their return to sport was healthy anyways? A lot of them experienced A lot of them experienced symptoms or prolapse or. Back pain. A lot of them are medicating

    and we don't know what they're going through.

    So

    Sharon: Which is terrible because it comes out through the breast milk. Like,

    Surabhi: through their

    Sharon: I

    mean? It

    Surabhi: their mental health, their sleep, and like, what's the rush?

    Like, What is the rush? There's always, always say like, you don't run in the next six months. There's always the, the rest of your life, you know, it's, it's okay. It's not going

    anywhere. It's

    running is not going anywhere

    Sharon: But I do find myself kind of like timing, Like when if I were to get pregnant again, you know, when is the best time so that I could squeeze in one more race before all of this happens. I mean, one of my favorite things is to run the Berlin Marathon, so I'm always Oh, there's another one next September, so maybe I have to postpone all activity until after that race anyway.

    No, that's silly. But,

    um,

    Surabhi: race is always gonna be there.[01:02:00]

    Sharon: I

    Surabhi: And, and sometimes for me anyways, mentally after, cuz I, I just wanted two kids and I was like, after two I can get back to really building my base, really building my fitness between the kids. I didn't as much because I also didn't receive the help that I needed.

    But I also felt like, oh, what's the point? I'm gonna get pregnant again anyway, I have to do this all over again. So that was a little bit of my mentality back then, which was not, not great, but that's honestly what it was. But after my second I was like, I'm done now. I can do whatever I want, work up to it.

    And I don't feel like I have to have this like, huge interruption in, in my life again. So if you know that planning for another one, it's okay. It's okay to pause and not have to, you know, put that pressure on yourself of needing to do a race or needing to do this before then. So I have five questions for you and our final thoughts.

    and I would love to hear a little bit about you. We've talked about you obviously, but about what [01:03:00] is your favorite book or podcast that's been life- changing.

    Sharon: Um. So I'm gonna skip on the podcast, uh, because I actually terrible at, um, processing information by sound, although I highly recommend, um, someone named Tara Brach, B r a c h. She does guided meditation. So I listen to her podcast once in a while when I, when I want to, you know, have a voice in my head. Um, I think this is interesting cuz this is, this is a book on motherhood that I think achieved the opposite effect on me

    How Power Moms made her realize she didn’t want to choose career over motherhood

    And so it was life changing because it showed me how I didn't wanna be as a mother and as a book a friend gave me called Power Moms. And it was supposed to be a collection of career driven women, um, in the fifties and sixties and career driven women in the nineties, two thousands. And how they, um, a compare and contrast of their, their experience [01:04:00] as women, um, and as career woman.

    But, After listening and reading the book, I decided that I don't want any part in the way they've conducted being mothers because all of it was, you know, outsourcing and then having children who grew up like estranged from their parents eventually interviewed and said, You know, I can understand why my mom never showed up.

    Um, and it made me realize I am happy to take a backseat, at least in the industries that demand that of. , um, for that deeper relationship, as you said, with my child, um, up to a certain point. Or I want to change the way and the expectation of how a woman, um, achieves greatness in her career and the definition of it while being able to take care of my child.

    And this isn't about having it all, it's actually about [01:05:00] compromising. Um, and this book showed me at least these women were having it all, but not having anything at all. Like they just had their career. And, you know, at the end of the day, half of them regretted It had a very somber tone to it.

    Surabhi: I, I've never read that book, but hearing you talk about it sounds like it would be very powerful, you know, wanting to do the opposite of exactly that. But, um, I read this thing and it was like so powerful to me, and it said, this woman leaves a note on her work desk and she says, Remember, you are replaceable here, but you're not replaceable at home. And I was like,

    Wow

    Sharon: Hmm.

    Surabhi: Because it's true. I'm a physio, I'm, you know, I'm great what I, what I do, but I am replaceable at home. I am not replaceable. So that is my priority, right. Being. There for my mentally and physically present for my children, I wanna play with them. I wanna be silly with them and have fun with them.

    And people don't realize, I think women don't realize when they're gonna have kids. Sometimes [01:06:00] these, especially these career driven movement women like me, I didn't realize I'd actually enjoy hanging out with my kids so much. You know, I didn't, I didn't know what I would get out of it, out That part of my inner child would heal because I'm hanging out with them.

    And I didn't get to play like that as a child. I didn't have my parents present with me as a child in that way. And I get to relive that. I get to heal, I get to so much more out of it than just, okay, I'm raising a child to be a good human and this and that. Like, there's, it's a relationship and I, I'm so glad

    that you learned, learned

    that so early

    Sharon: but let's put a caveat there. The first six months, they're really not fun they just poop and they cry. And occasionally you're like, Ah, they're Tommy, and they're about to, Oh, they didn't right. So I, I'm, I'm completely like the first six months I think I've actually completely blocked out.

    I don't like, I don't remember what my daughter did at all. But now it's like this beautiful window into [01:07:00] a evolving mind and emotions and facial expressions and. It's, it's, it's like, it's addictive. Like, I wanna hang out with her every day to be like, What else are you gonna do today? Right now she loves backing up to a, a very small seat, and then like, just like letting go and dropping.

    And sometimes she'll miss the cushion and it's some musing. When she misses it, she makes this noise. She's like, Oh, . Then she gets up and she tries again. And then the other day we bought her a mini piano and she sat on the piano like it was a

    Surabhi: Oh yes.

    My son does that too. He plays it with his bum

    and he thinks that that's how you it. And I'm

    like, That's adorable.

    Like

    Sharon: well, that's our fault for like, why buy a small piano? Do you know what I mean? A piano is that size. Like, if it's that small, it must be set Um,

    Surabhi: I know.

    Sharon: so I, I recommend that book as like a, a, a what, not to do ,

    Surabhi: Yeah. And

    Sharon: but maybe some woman wanna read it.

    Surabhi: and, and that's not a, that's not a [01:08:00] judgment on them if that's what they want. It's just a, a statement that that's not, You decided

    that that wasn't for you. I think that's, that's

    so important

    Sharon: Transformative. It was super

    Surabhi: Um, okay. My next question. What are three things you like to do For

    yourself every day?

    For example, self care.

    Sharon: O um, it's so interesting because I think things are so inconsistent. Um, but I realize that for sure, I love to make coffee in the morning with like my little pour over, um, kettle while my child's having breakfast. And I just like get lost for five seconds in, in making it, um, always drink water before you drink coffee, obviously.

    Um,

    Surabhi: you said like, this is what Sevy would do.

    Sharon: No, no, no. I,

    I, I, I'm sure you've had enough people tell you, but literally when I don't drink enough water, I think. . Um, and, and I hope this is okay to say, but I, like, I think of you telling me you're gonna be constipated, I'm like, [01:09:00] no, So it's like, Sorry, in my head more than my mother, which is really awesome.

    Um, and I do try, this is, you know, the time doesn't really matter, but I do try to like do a little simple meditation or like breath work, um, daily. And, and sometimes it might even be when I'm making the coffee to like kill two birds with one stone. Um, but I don't, I think this is a lot of people and you, you taught me a little bit more about that is that I don't, a lot of people don't breathe properly.

    I hold my breath all the time. I hold my breath when I was driving. I hold my breath when I'm typing an email. I don't breathe enough. Um, and my nervous system as a result is just completely off. Many times. So that reset and breathing is so important that I don't think I consistently do it as self care.

    I just do it as survival, Um, because I know what it's like when I don't. And then I think the third thing that [01:10:00] I've recently been really into is like a nighttime skin care routine. I don't do it in the morning, but at night I'm like, if I can take 15 minutes to slather all these products

    Surabhi: and potions in

    serums. Yep.

    Sharon: right now we're at five and I'm pretty sure like five is too much, but whatever , um,

    Surabhi: long as it makes you happy, it helps your skin feel good.

    I.

    Sharon: there's not enough counter space, but yeah,

    Surabhi: I, I do, I started a skin time routine, night time routine, probably in the past year or two, because before that I was like, Oh, I have no energy for this. But then I was like, and I always thought, Oh, I'm melanated, right? I'll, that'll protect my skin from aging.

    But then I started to see like the crows feet and I'm like, Oh, I see. Maybe I do need to start taking better care of myself. So that's awesome. That's, I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad to hear to you take moments to breathe too, because I call it like nervous system hygiene, right? It's just hygiene, weaving it in when you can, rather than

    Sharon: Well if you brush [01:11:00] your teeth, why not breathe?

    You know?

    Surabhi: And my third question is, what are you really passionate about right now?

    Sharon: Mm. I think I found the, the brain fog clearing to be so wonderful that everything is like brighter and cooler and more exciting. And so I, I have a, like a massive to-do list of like how to improve myself. Um, but I think. I think passion is, is something usually reserved for, for like a, a real flame. Um, and I was recently talking to a girlfriend who almost got let go at work again.

    It was after she came back from her maternity leave. Um, and so I've been really excited to read and sort of understand how mothers with what they had to be a very, you know, successful career, um, transition. And, um, I again connected with a friend whose career [01:12:00] coach and he was like, You should just see if you can do that for other women.

    Um, and, and so I'm not putting this on air as a, uh, like a, like a statement tole declaration. But I think that's one thing that I've been consistently excited about learning and reading is like, what are all the different frameworks and the ways that women can. Continue in the career and continue to be a good mother.

    Um, and then when they struggle, how can you help them? Because I really hate to see another woman be super frazzled and overwhelmed in the process. I just want postpartum to be better for someone else because it was so terrible for me. I just wanna help them. Um, and so right now it's my immediate network who knows something about later.

    Surabhi: And you know what? That is awesome if you

    if you start supporting the people in

    your network, that

    Sharon: I wanna give back.

    Surabhi: And that's how, that's why I started my business, honestly, because my postpartum was so incredibly hard and I felt like if [01:13:00] someone had just. Been there for me and supported me in the way that I needed things would've gone so much better.

    And that's what I wanna offer other people is, you know, using my own, obviously education and knowledge, but also my own personal experience because that does, that's different. And like you said, people without children, they're not gonna get it. They might maybe empathize, but they're not gonna get it. And it's, once you've been through it, you get it and you, you start to understand why it's so hard.

    Um, I love that you, you, from the many conversations we've had about it, it's definitely one of

    your big passions. And I can see that. So if

    you could change

    Sharon: and I actually think mm-hmm. ,

    Sorry, go

    Surabhi: No, go on.

    Sharon: well, I was gonna say

    it's really interesting because you hit on the point that you wish someone was there to support you the way you needed. I actually think even going one step prior to that, a lot of us didn't know what we needed. We were just, we knew we didn't have it.

    Surabhi: were

    Sharon: were

    just frazzled and [01:14:00] overwhelmed. We knew what we were missing or we were holding onto our old selves and we couldn't communicate what we needed. I think if, if I can help someone in that very initial phase of like chaos to be able to communicate like, this is what I'm missing, or this is what I need, then they can get to healing and recovering faster.

    Surabhi: that. making the connection. You're making the connection with them Yeah. Love that. Um, and you know, one thing that a lot of people will say, I wish I knew. I wish somebody told me. And sometimes. That helps. But sometimes it doesn't help because someone can tell you that it's really hard and you're gonna be exhausted, but you don't get it until you've been through it.

    And then you say, Oh my God, why didn't anyone tell me? But then you're like, Oh yeah, everyone did tell me that I would barely sleep the first year postpartum. But it's, it's different knowing and then actually experiencing. So I think having someone there who, when you're in

    that experience zone, being

    able to make that

    Sharon: Can pull you a

    Surabhi: Yeah.

    To pull you along, I think

    that's, That's [01:15:00] fantastic.

    Sharon: Well, I, The answers don't make sense unless you're asking the questions. Right.

    Surabhi: Yeah.

    Sharon: lot of the times Exactly. I think a lot of

    people are just like, I don't know what to ask because there's so many questions. Is this poop, um, indicative of something else? Or,

    Surabhi: Well, and then they're Googling and of course that usually just spikes anxiety and fear because Google's gonna, whatever you Google, your baby has something really bad, right? Like no matter what, could be a normal thing. My kid had a tantrum. Oh, they might have all of these disorders, and you're like, they just are a two year

    old.

    Okay. You know?

    Um,

    Sharon: answer eventually was teething. She's just teething. That's why she's screaming and crying and whatever, and probably it was, we'll never know. It doesn't really matter.

    Surabhi: it doesn't

    matter. Just let the kid be a kid and, you know, there's bad days and that's how kids respond. And adults, we don't cry as much, but we, we tantrum in other ways, you know? Um, we're

    just big kids at heart. [01:16:00] Okay.

    Sharon: Although one time it was bedbugs Turkey

    Surabhi: yeah, you told me about that Oh

    my gosh, you

    Sharon: So this is .

    Surabhi: Oh

    Sharon: This is why it's actually funny to be me, because I think eventually it went from super type A to like super Laisser Faire. Like, Oh, everything's just teething or whatever. And my husband's like, she's been itching and she refuses and cries when she, we put her in that crib, like, I think it's bedbugs.

    And we were like, Oh. Could be on the last day. So I, I think again, you have to, you have to have complimentary partners with different styles to maybe make sure nobody suffers serious injuries.

    Surabhi: Yeah, and that's, I feel like that's not a common thing too, like bedbugs when you have a like that is not a, that's not something that

    happens

    to

    Sharon: Yeah. I've put her through the ringer. I really, you know, I'm, I'm eternally grateful for my daughter's patience,

    Surabhi: What would, if you could change one thing in the world about the world, [01:17:00] what would it

    be

    Sharon: Universal maternity and paternity policy, like universal. It should be like a human right? Like if you choose to have baby, if you choose, um, to have an abortion, if you choose, if you accidentally or, or physiologically went through, um, an abortion. If you, uh, have twins, you should have more maternity

    Surabhi: I'm like, Wait, you get

    Sharon: like

    Surabhi: Yeah, I agree

    Sharon: Quadruplets, I don't know. Like at, at some point there's a,

    Surabhi: point you're like, All right, just

    you don't have

    Sharon: can't seven years

    off

    Surabhi: exactly There's a set of twins at kids' daycare and both parents always come in with them and it's just so cute. But it's, it's gotta be teamwork, right? Like when you have, and when you have two kids, it's, it's more teamwork, right?

    There's sometimes exponentially more work and then in other ways, way less work cuz your older one is like kind of there to entertain your baby too.

    Sharon: I really hope that at some point they just take care of them [01:18:00] and be like older one daughter go

    Surabhi: Honestly, my daughter does. She's quite responsible, and she'll, she'll tell the little one is getting into trouble, like, oh, he's, he's getting into this and kind of gimme a heads up.

    So I have like a few moments to get there.

    She saved my

    Sharon: My older brother is, is six years older than

    Surabhi: me

    brother's

    Sharon: feel like

    I

    My, My, mom had it a little bit easier with me, um, and she just had to let me do whatever I want and then let him suffer a little bit

    Right? So it was smart, but I, anyway, I actually think the, the cool part is if you raise a really independent and strong kid, um, presumably, you know, when you welcome another child that that's going to have them step up and, and they're gonna discover and play and, and enjoy life that way and, and takes a little load off of the parents.

    Surabhi: It's like you put in the work and you reap the rewards down the road and it, you do. I've been, I've been through it [01:19:00] and I'm going through it and for sure, like all of the work we did with my first hugely has paid off and I'm starting to see it more and more now. She's four, so, you know, I'm, I'm excited to see how both the kids

    do. My last question for you is, what do you think is your Mom strength ?

    Sharon: Uh, well, I mean, I've just told a lot of silly stories, um, but I would say, I would say I iterate quickly and I have, you know, an ability to create, but then also deal with, uh, very chaotic, intense, random, spontaneous and unplanned, um, situations, and then come out of it, for the most part, laughing a little bit at the silliness that we've done.

    Um, this was unintentional, but I just, I just wanted to live the summer, so we, we really traveled extensively with our child. Um, I counted, I think we've, we've stayed at 10 Airbnbs. four months. Um, and then that's not counting

    hotels, I [01:20:00] think, but, um, you know, she, she's, she's quite seasoned and, and at the same time, like, um, I've become a lot more, uh, less anxious actually with traveling with a baby who then turned into a toddler in that period.

    Um, my favorite actually moment that my husband and I always talk about as a, an example of good teamwork is once we had 30 minutes, um, to pack up everything and go for a couple day trip in, in another city in Germany. Um, and we managed to get to the Berlin train station with five minutes of spare. So we basically packed for 15 minutes, got her lunch heated, packed up water cookies, didn't spare, you know, diapers, et cetera.

    Um, called a car, got there, knew exactly where to go and got on the train. Um, and when we got there, we just took a deep breath. We were like,

    We could do this. It's not that bad. Like everyone tells, you know, these horrible stories about traveling with babies and [01:21:00] you just have to, I guess, be a little quick.

    Um, but also

    Surabhi: just the essentials and not like everything under the sun. Yeah.

    Sharon: exactly. So sort of like reducing everything to very simple, simple

    Surabhi: And I think you only gain that knowledge through experience and from what you're describing, like for anyone listening who's debating traveling and stuff, I think it's

    a fantastic thing that you're, you've done with

    your chil your

    Sharon: I think you have to trust yourself. I think the, that's the part, right? We go back to being insecure as a mom. You have to trust yourself that like you can, you, you're, you are more capable than you, you think you are, um, at being a mom in various situations. Um, and at the end of the day, I, I sometimes, I know this is dark, but I think about all the women that have survived war with their.

    you know, and I'm like, We have it so easy. running water

    Surabhi: There.

    Well,

    Sharon: So what are We complaining

    Surabhi: and that's it is, is I think it's important to have that perspective and not be stuck in ourselves and in our heads. [01:22:00] And it's important to talk to other people cuz you start to gain more perspective that like, oh, okay, maybe what I'm going through isn't as big a deal as I'm making it out to be.

    And it, and if you did get there and you missed your train, it still wouldn't have been your

    failure or your, you know, it wouldn't have been a, a,

    failure.

    Sharon: Oh, we've also done that This, the anecdote there that we didn't do was wa I think we had six pieces of luggage and a stroller, um, and a baby. I know it was poorly planned. We should have driven. Um, and the train left, uh, two minutes before my husband got there and I actually was sitting, standing right in front of, um, our, our door calling him, being like, Should I leave you and just go on with all of luggage?

    Cuz then you get like a couple hours alone. Um, but then I was like, I don't wanna carry six pieces of luggage

    Surabhi: how would you even that?

    Yeah.

    Sharon: um, you just like move two and then use like a shoulder? No, I [01:23:00] I ended up getting, I think the entire, uh, train to help me

    Surabhi: Yeah.

    Sharon: so

    Surabhi: leaning, Leaning on other people

    because most people are good people and we'll help. Right.

    Sharon: and and I mean, it was in French and, and people just kind of looked at me, uh, and was like, You need help. Um, and they proactively did it. So again, strangers will lean in, um, and I think you might surprise yourself so anxious, you know, worried moms just do something silly once in a while and if you fail, that's okay.

    Try it again. Um, you'll surprise yourself and it'll be a good story.

    Surabhi: That's, that's also true. Can you tell me, um, there's one last story that I want you to share is about your.

    Fall, like in the train.

    Sharon: Mm, yes. So that was actually. All things considered, it went so much better than I think the horror stories that you would assume when you are traveling abroad and have to go to emergency. But that [01:24:00] was the train actually that we missed. Um, and then got on a new train and at that point she was exhausted because we had basically been packing and traveling all day that, um, it was her afternoon nap time and she fell and I didn't think much of it cuz she was roaming around these moving trains the, for the whole summer.

    Um, but she fell, she cried really hard and then she suddenly just fell asleep in my arms and I thought, okay, maybe it was just exhaustion. And when she woke up, she would, something was just off. She was very fussy. But it also took us about two hours before we got to our Paris flat. Um, and that's when I noticed she wasn't using her left arm.

    And immediately I was like, okay, like literally it's limp. Um,

    We're going to the emergency, there's no, there's no whatever. And, and while I'm there, I'm looking up all of the medical conditions. And Google was a very frightening, um, uh, answer, answer bank. But [01:25:00] we got to the emergency and, um, it was just me, uh, and my daughter and, and effectively communicated as much as I could in French, um, what I'm seeing.

    And then there was another five or six hours in the emergency. Um, I think the interesting thing there was I realized I stayed very calm when something seems very, uh, very stressful or drastic because I was like, I think she didn't, like, I think her arm's not broken, but if it's broken, then we do all things.

    And I, Yeah. And I realized I was literally just calm. I hadn't even had dinner. Um, and, and by midnight when she finally was able to use her arm, it was a pulled elbow. Um, Which is just a ligament that, that sort of, And the doctor, when he wrenched it back in, I'd never see my daughter in so much pain, um, and anguish.

    And it was heartbreaking. But I, I thought to myself like, just trust the medical [01:26:00] system and, and you know, hopefully it'll all be over. Um, but I, you know, I was happy that number one, I had the wherewithal to be like, We're going to the emergency, Just, we're going like, let's not waste time. And then when I got there, I was very calm and just sort of went through everything without, um, panicking because I think panic is maybe the worst thing to do in, in these situations, especially when you're

    Surabhi: ESP and especially with a child who then feeds off of that panic and probably escalates even more. Right. So, wow, that would be really hard. And I am

    so proud of you for advocating for your

    Sharon: a lot pictures.

    Surabhi: yeah, Well, no, I think that's something that you're gonna look back on in like few years and you can tell your daughter story and

    be like, Wow, like I did that. That

    is

    Sharon: Well, I saved the bracelet cause I was like your first massive hospital visit. So fun. She was like not

    Surabhi: Oh, I've heard. are so painful. And [01:27:00] children also react to pain so much more intensely because it's like they

    don't have as many experiences with pain, so

    any pain they

    Sharon: Uh, so that was,

    that was the other realization is that she had a really high paid tolerance. In fact, she was completely normal. But if you touched it or forced her or, or sort of enticed her to use that arm, she would then let out a cry. But that's why it was actually so hard to detect because she fell at, I think four in the afternoon and I didn't realize it until eight.

    Both of us, like my husband was out at that point. We didn't realize it. Um, and. We would've maybe just chalked it up to exhaustion and put her to bed. Um, and so yeah, it's, that was terrible that she didn't really react . So

    Surabhi: maybe,

    was in shock too right? Like maybe she was in a bit of shock. Our weird things, but I'm so glad you got that help. And in the France, you know, Paris [01:28:00] emergency room

    system, they did what they needed to.

    Sharon: all things considered, I mean, it's ending,

    Surabhi: would've been faster service than you'd get in

    Toronto Emerge, probably

    although sick kids I've heard

    Sharon: be.

    Surabhi: fantastic.

    Thank you so much Sharon for sharing yourself your journey as a pregnant and postpartum woman, mother, uh, and all of your wisdom. I feel like you've got such a fantastic view and approach to motherhood for being only 15 months postpartum. Like that's incredible. It, and I hope it inspires other people to live more authentically in a way that actually they want to live rather than the way that society tells them that they need to live.

    Whether you're in Asia and Europe and North America, wherever you are in

    the world, um,

    any last

    Sharon: I think to some degree I feel like I'm, I'm very grateful to be a stay at home working mom because I've had a lot of time to be able to digest right? And to be able to say, I just had a thought, I'm gonna write [01:29:00] it down and then think about it a bit more. Um, but again, like the support network, if you hadn't, um, posed these questions to me, I don't think I would be able to succinctly communicate.

    Um, as, you know, the, the empowering women and, and sort of coaching them through the postpartum has been the thought that's literally been itching at me for a year and three months. Um, and it's only maybe the last two, three weeks that I've put it together to be like, actually that is something that I think is a bit of a mission.

    Um, and I wanna follow it through. So also thank you for, for being the, both the trigger and the support network and then the continuing, um, friend to, to bring these things out. It's really important to have these conversations.

    Surabhi: so much, Sharon. I really appreciate you saying that. And it's sometimes hard to know what impact anything you've said makes on anyone else. And I think I'm, I'm grateful for you for, um, communicating and sharing that with

    me. I, that's,

    that [01:30:00] makes

    Sharon: For sure, some gratitude to

    Surabhi: Thank you so much. And for all of our listeners, if this conversation was helpful, please share it with a friend.

    Um, please tag me on social media at the Passionate Physio. Do you wanna share

    your, your Instagram with, with the audience? What would

    you prefer?

    Sharon: Oh, um, it's, uh, so my first name is Sharon. Um, so it's s h and then my last name is Fan. So it's s h Fantastic

    Surabhi: Literally just put that together. Isn't that funny? I

    Sharon: sh

    Surabhi: shift. I,

    Sharon: Really

    Surabhi: yeah.

    Clearly. I, yeah. That

    makes so much

    Sharon: There were other, there were other puns with my last name, um, that, that we had, that are less appropriate, but sh fantastic is a

    Surabhi: Yeah, I was gonna say, that's a great one. Um, awesome. Thank you so much. For all our listeners, you are the best. Please keep subscribing and stay tuned for a new podcast hitting you next week. Thanks so much.

    Sharon: Thank you.[01:31:00]

Surabhi Veitch https://www.thepassionatephysio.ca
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