85. Pleasure Isn’t a Destination: Unpacking Sex, Shame & Identity with Dr. Uchenna Ossai
Listen & Subscribe on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
What if our understanding of sex, especially in the medical world, is all wrong? In this passionate and unfiltered conversation, Surabhi Veitch is joined by pelvic health physical therapist, sexuality educator and counselor Dr. Uchenna Ossai, also known as Dr. UC. They explore how pleasure is more than just an orgasm, why goal-oriented sex is limiting, and how cultural identities shape our experiences with intimacy.
From navigating sexual shame to being more present during sex across different life challenges like pregnancy and postpartum, this episode is a must-listen for anyone who works in healthcare or anyone who wants to elevate their intimacy.
They also dive into the Pelvic Health Sexuality Counseling Certificate Program by Dr. Uchenna Ossai and Heather Edwards, a fellow pelvic physiotherapist, and they discuss why intersectionality must be central to how healthcare providers approach care.
✨This episode is sponsored by Embodia https://www.embodiaapp.com/ - use code momstrength to save $20 off your first month’s Tier 3 membership.
✨Click here to learn more about How I use Embodia as a Pelvic Physiotherapist!
Connect with Dr. Uchenna “UC” Ossai:
—Instagram @youseelogic
Connect with Surabhi:
Website: https://www.thepassionatephysio.ca
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Surabhi: Welcome to Mom Strength, a podcast and movement to empower, educate, and showcase mom strength inside and out. I'm your host, Surabhi, Veitch, physiotherapist and fitness coach, also known as the Passionate Physio. Join me for discussions on movement, mindset, and motherhood where we raise the bar and challenge the [00:01:00] status quo.
Get ready for expert interviews and real honest conversations where we explore physical, mental, and emotional health. Let's celebrate the beautiful diversity and common experiences in all of our journeys. Let's do this.
Surabhi: Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mom Strength. I'm your host, Surabhi Veitch and I'm so excited to have on today Dr. UC Ossai, who you may know, um, from the Instagram worlds as @youseelogic. Um. Dr. UC is a pelvic PT, sex counselor, assistant professor in Salt Lake City in Utah.
And honestly, a general badass. And, um, I'm so excited to have you on here today.
Uchenna: Thank you for having me. I am just elated. Happy to be here. Very happy to be, be here.
Surabhi: So tell me a little bit about what got you into the world of sex education. Um, sex counseling. Pelvic PT is such a broad field and you can go so many directions.
So what, what brought you into the that interest?
Uchenna: Um, well I was lucky enough, uh, when I graduated, uh, physiotherapy school, PT [00:01:00] school to have been accepted into a residency program for pelvic health. Um, at the time it was called Women's Health Residency, but it's evolved. But at Wash U, so I was at Wash Washington University at St.
Louis, which was, is one of the top programs in the US for pt. And they had some serious, um, super humans, uh, leading the charge. Uh, Dr. Tracy or Dr. Teresa Spitznagel, Dr. Tracy Spitznagel, um, and, uh, you know, Dr. Stacy til. Dr. Brooke Kak, they were my mentors. And so during that year, I was seeing patients, mind you, across the gender spectrum.
Surabhi: Yeah.
Uchenna: Um, so it was just all over. And one of the, even though my job was to learn to be like a pelvic health expert, expert, there were so many sexual issues that kept coming up. Yeah. And remember I was green, green as key brand spanking new, [00:02:00] right? I still, I still had breast milk on my mouth from PT school, right?
I was just trying to learn and I would, I, you know, uh, some of my, I will never forget, I had a patient, he was, you know, we, he was doing post prostatectomy rehab for his incontinence, and he was asking me all these questions about his, his erectile function, his sexual function, and I just didn't. Couldn't answer them.
Yeah. I I couldn't answer them. At least with confidence.
Surabhi: Yeah.
Uchenna: And, um, I felt like so devastated by my lack of knowledge. And I remember I asked a colleague that we, we sat next to each other. I. And, you know, he identified as a male and I asked him all these questions and he was like, I actually don't know.
You know? And, and so I, that became my journey. It was, you know, that, that, I think it was just, it wasn't just him. I think he was just the straw that, that patient, the [00:03:00] straw out of all of the patients that I couldn't, um, really answer.
Surabhi: You couldn't help.
Uchenna: Yeah. Right. And here I am in this residency program, right, right.
And I, this. The residency program was excellent by far. But one of the things that I think when you think about all graduate healthcare education, whether you're talking about nursing, um, physical therapy, occupational therapy, medicine, they don't do, uh, they don't center sex education.
Surabhi: No. It's like an afterthought.
Uchenna: Yeah. If, if at all. And, and it's not, they're not, they don't teach it. Even though we know it's central to one's health, they don't teach it as, as such because the concept of sex is so, um, wrapped up in a lot of cultural, societal expectations, norms, and, and, and power struggles and dynamics. So, so that's what actually got me going on my path, uh, to becoming what I've become today.
Surabhi: That's incredible. And I feel like. Early on in my [00:04:00] career, actually, my first job, my first year, I remember, uh, treating a man with discogenic back pain. And this was, I wasn't in pelvic health, I was in orthopedics. And he, you know, I was helped him, you know, he was doing better. And then he kind of started really feeling awkward asking me this question, and he actually started crying in this session, like a grown adult male, which you rarely see.
You know, it's not normalized in our society to let men express their emotions. And he was crying during the session because, um, intimacy was so important to him and his wife, and he was like, I'm not able to. Participate in, you know, be intimate with my wife. Like, can you help me with some tips? And listen, I grew up in a conservative Hindu home, so I was just like, same thing as vanilla.
I was like, oh, okay. And so there was this book in our clinic called Sex, sex Ed, or Sex positions or something specifically for people with back pain. And so I photocopied, right, photocopied these pages, put them in an [00:05:00] envelope and just gave it to him. Yeah, I couldn't even like. Talk about it back then. He came back the next visit and he was like, thank you so much.
Like, that was so helpful. You've helped me more than anyone, and I'm thinking all I did was photocopy some pages for you and like taught you a few alternate positions because you know, as the patient you often can't think clearly when you're in pain either. Or when you're, when it's happening to your body.
So, you know, that was my first taste of, well, I better learn more about this because I'm gonna keep getting these questions. And, um, not only is it embarrassing not having an answer, but you're also like, I can't help this person. And that feels like it feels wrong. Like our job is to help people. Right. So a hundred percent.
I love that it came that way for you. Okay. So tell me a little bit about some myths that people have around sexuality in long-term relationships. Um. Both heterosexual, cisgender relationships, um, or queer [00:06:00] relationships just in general?
Uchenna: Yeah, I think that, you know, I let, let's, let's start with the concept of orgasms, right?
Um, and I think that the, I think one of the myths, and I, I brought this up, um, in one of my Instagram posts is like, I'm supposed to orgasm at the same time as my partner, right? So rarely happens. Can we unpack that? Like that is a very real complaint that I, I have gotten over the years still get, is like, why can't we simultaneously experience our pleasure?
Surabhi: Right.
Uchenna: And I always re, I always play do some wordplay and I said, you actually are simultaneously experiencing pleasure. Ah, you are. Yeah. The experience of sexual play and engagement and anticipation and touch. You are simultaneously experiencing pleasure. [00:07:00] Yeah. So the orgasm, the climax is not the pleasure czar, like it's not in charge of Yeah.
Your, it's just a by byproduct of experiencing, of, of experimentation, of sexual experimentation and touch. Wow. Right. And so when we think about the concept of this needs to be the same, it's not taking into account a person's individual sexual self, right? If you and I were married, you would have your own sexual self.
I have my sexual self, and we bring that together in our marriage or in our relationship, and we, we create something that informs us both. So my sex, so what? My sexual self stuff, right? My stuff, my interests, my my, the things that interest me, the things that don't interest me aren't necessarily going to be the things that interest you or don't interest you.
Surabhi: Right.
Uchenna: But you find a sexual space together. [00:08:00] And so oftentimes the anecdote or the solvent to the answer to this distress is to kind of rework people's expectations, right?
Surabhi: Right.
Uchenna: And to think about. The concept of just this, the goal oriented sex and how we, the checkbox Oh, the
checkbox
Surabhi: orgasm achieved.
Yeah. Done. Yeah.
Uchenna: How we're, how we're managing that, that idea of sex.
Surabhi: Right.
Uchenna: Because the, what is the simultaneous orgasm was, was a kind of a false construct, right? It's not really. It's not even saying like, I might have an orgasm at the same time as my partner. It doesn't mean that it's a pleasurable orgasm.
Yeah.
Surabhi: Doesn't mean it's the best you know, way it's supposed to happen.
Uchenna: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It doesn't mean that we're any more depending on like how you [00:09:00] want that sexual experience to be. If you're looking for intimacy, sometimes with the orgasm, depending on the relationship, after you orgasm, the intimacy disappears.
Like there's no connection, right? It's almost like puts people further apart depending on the context of the situation,
Surabhi: right?
Uchenna: People, the orgasm or the experience or the pleasure brings them together, but. I, I challenge people to think of the orgasm as you would, as one of the things that experiences in life.
Like one of the things you see on a walk on a hike, right? Yeah. I might see the river. I might see an oak tree. I might see a spring or red flag, right?
Surabhi: It's not the top of the mountain. It's not the, it's not the views from the top. It's just another thing that you might see on the hike.
Uchenna: Exactly. Exactly. And so when we do that and you say, how do we experience mutual pleasure?
Let's play together. Mm. And luxuriate in that mutual play.
Surabhi: Oh, that's a good word.
Uchenna: Right. And just be all yummy, yummy in that play. Whatever that play looks like.
Surabhi: Yes.
Uchenna: Right. That, that's, [00:10:00] that's the juice.
Surabhi: Yes, that's the juice. And I think that for that to happen, we have to get, we have to communicate with our partners because I think so often we fall into.
These ruts of this is what our sex looks like, our sex finishes in orgasm. This means sex is done because sex it doesn't. Sex doesn't have to finish at orgasm. It can finish at any time.
Uchenna: At any time.
Surabhi: There there's no like end goal. Okay. Now we've had sex because we have both orgasms, and I feel like going back to what you've just said is.
Working that framework of like, it's not about goal-oriented sex. You know, it's not about another checkbox. It's about experiencing pleasure together. And the first thing you said is you are both experiencing pleasure. And I think we forget that our partner, if, even if it's just our partner experiencing orgasm, if we are in an intimate [00:11:00] relationship that's, you know, with consent and someone you are excited about, you also experience pleasure.
When they experience pleasure and we can't forget about that part.
Uchenna: Absolutely. And can I also speak to the individuals who are having sex, but they're not totally into having sex and they're having sex because they're, they're like, you know what? I just,
Surabhi: you're told that's what, yeah.
Uchenna: Yeah. Or they feel obligated.
I just wanna also say like, there is, listen, everyone has, there are many reasons to have sex, right? And as long as you're consensual, as long as you're okay with those reasons. We can all like, everyone can take several seats,
Surabhi: right,
Uchenna: judge, right? So I don't want to prioritize. Pleasure, pleasure, sex. 'cause sometimes people have sex for power.
People have sex to kind of keep their partner like less cranky. I get it, right? Like there are multiple reasons we can hold space for all of the reasons. And [00:12:00] so however you wanna engage in that, and we have to understand that there are multiple reasons. Because when people ask me these questions.
Surabhi: Yeah.
Uchenna: And I do have to ask, well, what is sex for? Right? My colleague, right? Heather Edwards. Brilliant, brilliant human being, brilliant sex counselor educator, um, Heather, ed Edwards Creations. Heather Edwards has this great work workbook for her clients. It says, what is sex for? What is sex for? And I ask that of my clients.
I say, you know, what is X for, for you? And it can be multiple reasons. It could be many reasons. Many, many, many, many stress management. Listen, you might be like, I'm so stressed out. I need, I need, I need booboo to come home quickly. Right? Because I'm in the mood for partnered sex. Yes. And I need that, that release.
That release, right? Yep. And that's where sometimes people say, well, I need that orgasm for release. And then I, I say the same thing. I say, if we're using [00:13:00] this as an anxi, anxiety solve or bomb right? Then we wanna think about, okay, this whole experience and how it's just kind of soothing your anxiety and like kind of the process of chasing your pleasure and experimenting your pleasure is it is a way to build out your anxiety.
Surabhi: Mm-hmm.
Uchenna: And it could be that the type of sex you engage in might be a di, like the sex you engage
Surabhi: different type of,
Uchenna: exactly different type of play. Yes. If you are feeling anxious because you're feeling powerless, and then you actually feel like you wanna have a sexual encounter where you're the, where you're the captain, right?
Yes. Where you're in charge, right? You can say, okay, sweetheart. Like it could be something simple as like, you can text and be like, I need you when you get home to take those shoes off. Right? Get up, be dressed in these, this, these boxer briefs that I love. Yeah. Yeah. Or this thong that I love. Yes. Or whatever.
Yeah. And, and [00:14:00] be on the bed, and I'll be there in 15 minutes, but I want you to stay put.
Surabhi: Listen, who, whoever listening to this, if you've had a bad day, you've got rejected something. You know, you, you tried for something didn't happen. This is a great idea because I don't think people think about, we think about sex for pleasure or obviously, you know, making babies like it's so cut and dry, but there are all of these other reasons for sex in between.
Sometimes it's comfort, sometimes it's, it helps with emotional connection and some people are very into needing physical touch to feel secure in a relationship. Anxiety, sleep, like as we enter that perimenopausal state, listen, I can use all the help I can get with sleep, so. All the help. All the help.
Uchenna: All the help.
Same, same. Right? And, and it could be that I, I want everyone to think of sex as like you can create scenes that serve you. You can [00:15:00] create scenes that serve your partner, right? If that brings you joy, because sometimes you don't have to actually touch, you can watch, you can read to each other. Could listen to erotic sexual storytelling.
You can, like, there are lots of ways to be in that sexual energy and space, but I have to say something, I'm gonna say something controversial. A lot of us, when we have sex, we're not really present. No. I mean, that's not necessarily controversial, but I really want you to think about the last time you had sex.
How present were you in what you were feeling, experiencing, and and doing? How present were you?
Surabhi: I mean, there's a lot of, um. For me anyways, as a mom of two kids, there's a lot of mental distraction that I never had an issue with before and it's learning to, this is why I actually really, not that specific reason, but that's one of the main reasons I started my mindfulness, mindfulness practice [00:16:00] outside of sex, because it actually helped me be more mindful and present during sex,
Uchenna: right?
Surabhi: Because there's so many points in our day we mentally check out because we're drained, we're exhausted, and there's always something going on in the background of your to-do list. If you're not actually present for sex or for that sexual experience, you're not experiencing what you need, you're not getting that stress relief, you're not getting that pleasure, even if it's the best oral sex you've ever had, and you know your partner's doing all the right things, because there'd be times where I'm like, you know, he's doing all the right things, but I just, I'm not feeling it.
I'm just like, not here. And you know that because that's what sometimes people will say. My vagina, everything feels numb. And I'm like, is it true numbness? Like you cannot feel numb? Or is it that like you're not feeling the pleasure, you're expecting to feel that you used to feel, and how much of that is, you know, in your brain.
Uchenna: Right. Right. Ugh. [00:17:00] I mean, I think that that's, that's so perfect when we think about also the, the way that our brains are functioning as we go through the life cycle.
Surabhi: Hmm.
Uchenna: What's impacting what, right? Right. If we, we are perimenopausal brain. If we have menopause brain, if we have postpartum brain, pregnant brain, post-cancer treatment brain, we have, hey, like.
Everything's healthy brain, but I'm going through a transition in life where I'm going from a, from a manager to the CEO. Mm-hmm. Or I'm starting a business, or I'm taking care of an aging parent. Like there are so many pieces of our brain and our hormones and the neurotransmitters that are going to impact that.
And so one of the things that, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and I said, I feel so lucky in what I do. Because the way that I think about sex is there's like, it's, it's just really open. [00:18:00]
Surabhi: Yeah. You have a very broad Yeah. I don't have this not limited narrow view of it. No. Nope. But did that come yesterday?
That's what I was gonna ask. Is that, was that always the case for you? Because some people you, you just see they're like naturally more sexual.
Uchenna: Listen. Listen, you know, that is a great question and a great point. And I do like my, if you ask my sister, because you know, I'm the baby and my sister's the oldest.
Yeah. Remy we're only 18 months apart, but I, when I introduced her
Surabhi: Oh, cute.
Uchenna: When I introduced her to my friend or people, I'm like, this is my much older sister. And she, she really hates it. But, um, you know, she's a, she's a definitely a, like, much more reserved than I am. You know, I'm just. You know, but she will say, like, you see, you've always been a little like, Hey, I'm, you know, like I'm here.
And I think I've always been open-minded, but I, not when it comes to sex. I think [00:19:00] I was always curious. Like, I was like, huh? Like what does that, what does that mean? Um, but I will tell you this, like. I always felt comfortable expressing my curiosity, but my sister didn't, and we grew up in the same, growing up in the
Surabhi: same household.
Uchenna: We grew up in the same household. So I, I will say like there, there are parts of the individual person that may feel more comfortable and depending on how we see the world, like we're both black women.
Surabhi: Yeah.
Uchenna: Right. Um, let me clarify. We're both cisgender.
Surabhi: Mm-hmm.
Uchenna: Heterosexual black women. We, we express ourselves and, and think about sex completely differently with the same parenting.
Surabhi: And despite being like pretty close in age, it's not like you were like 10 years apart and grew up in a different generation, like you grew up together. And, and that's something that's important because I think so much of it is we, we are different people innately. And so for some people it comes easier, but I think [00:20:00] that just like language, you can learn it at any point, you know, it might take a little bit more work for some people.
Like for me, I never, if, if I look at my who I am as an individual, without the way I was raised, I don't think I would have any trouble speaking and asking for my needs. But because I was. Socialized as, you know, to be a good little, uh, south Indian girl. You know, quiet meek. That was my persona for a long time until I was like, wait, like who am I outside of like my rigid expectations that my parents put on me.
Um, I remember dating, dating a guy and, uh, it was early on in our relationship and he was like, just so you know, like I'm a, I'm a very sexual person. And I panicked. I was like, what does that mean? Like, I don't even understand, I don't even understand what that means because I, I had such a narrow view of what sex is and should be, and I panicked because I didn't know what that actually meant.
[00:21:00] And I think it's important that we don't judge ourselves if that's us. 'cause it's all about what exposure you've had, who you've been around, the learning you've done, the conversations you're having. Um. I think that what I love about you and your education is it's never judgy. You never feel like. You know, this person is looking down on me because I have these views, or I have these insecurities, and I think that as somebody who's a sex counselor, pelvic v pt, like what a gift to your clients, the people that you work with, and the people you educate because it's, it's both.
You help educators also unlearn their shame around it because just 'cause we're educators in pelvic PTs doesn't mean that we're not bringing our own baggage into it. Right.
Uchenna: I think, and that's a number I, I think that's a number one thing. Um, you know, I was talking with, you know, Dr. Kelly Caspers this past weekend 'cause it was south by Southwest and she was speaking on a [00:22:00] panel and we, you know, she's been a friend of mine for a long time.
And um, and she was saying, or we were, you know, we were kind of speaking on it. And the point of people need to understand that we are individuals going into this healthcare space. Just because we're providers, we don't know all and the same things that our patients are struggling with, we are struggling with.
And as for someone for me that I provided, you know, I was, professor in graduate medical education for, you know, 10 years. I think that that was the main piece that I started them with. I said, listen, you all do not need to, you know, adopt new values. You don't need to change who you are, you just need to know where you are.
Right. You just need to know where you are and what your comfort level is. And I would always say to the med students and our residents and our fellows, your patients want you to bring this up.
Surabhi: Hmm.
Uchenna: Patients want you to bring up this.
Surabhi: They're hoping you bring it up so they don't have to offer it.
Uchenna: They to bring up, you know, [00:23:00] 86% of patients want their provider to bring it up.
Surabhi: Hmm.
Uchenna: And the fear that the provider has is they don't wanna make the patient uncomfortable. They don't wanna cross a boundary, they don't wanna disrespect the patient, they don't wanna seem like a creep. Those are things they say, yeah, fair, because they don't have the skills to navigate it. And I'm like, you don't need to be the, you don't need to know all the answers.
But what you do need to know is what's in your community, what's in your patient, right?
Surabhi: Who can you refer them to, who you
Uchenna: can, and, and validate them by saying. I hear you right. Like we got seven minutes.
Surabhi: Yeah.
Uchenna: Right. And it's always at the end where, you know, it's like an
Surabhi: afterthought, by the way, sex really hurts.
Uchenna: Is that just normal way? And that's what I tell them. You know, ask all these questions. Say, okay, I hear you. We're not gonna be able to address that in the 30 seconds we have left.
Yeah. But
here's this great website, or here's this great Instagram account, or here's this great book. I want you to look into this.
While, but during the time that you [00:24:00] go see this other referred provider that I'm sending you to, yes. Let's get you started. So in that encounter, they're validating the patient, they're giving them a resource, and the patient has direction. You did not have to reveal yourself. You did not have to like go into the politics of it.
You did not have to. All you had to do was listen to their concerns, validate it with the referral, and give them a resource that they can educate themselves further on.
Surabhi: It was like that handout that I gave my client, I was like, I don't feel ready to educate. But you know what? There is a whole book that we have in clinic.
Exactly. And I was shocked at how much it helped him, but it clearly provided him with the resources he needed at that time.
Uchenna: Exactly. And I think that people think it needs to be much more complicated than it is. Yeah. And it, it don't get me wrong, and I don't wanna poo poo the complicated, it is complicated, but I think in the, when you're the first touch touchpoint, yes.
Keep it simple. Like what you [00:25:00] did was beautiful. And it made such an impact.
Surabhi: It really did. Like I, I remember that moment. I remember that moment. You know, and I also think that often when somebody has. Any type of sexual pain, especially, especially um, as vulva owners, there's a lot of stigma and shame associated with it.
I'm sure it's the same. I don't work with men. Um, mostly I work with, uh, women and vulva owners, so erectile dysfunction, there's a lot of shame associated with these types of diagnoses and, um, dysfunctions or situations, and I really think. When we talk about it more openly or we, when we even ask, you know, how is in my form intake form, is there anything you'd like to share about your sexual health or wellness?
You know, how is your pleasure? Has it changed after having a baby? Like certain, you know, guideline questions, guiding questions, it opens up those conversations. 'cause people are, we more likely gonna write it down to an, you know, computer screen than actually share that [00:26:00] face-to-face. And, um, especially I find my women of color.
Uh, you know, Asian Indian women like, who are very, you know, we don't talk about this in our house. Um, and it's important because many people are having sex. It's not uncommon, like a lot of people are doing it and there's a lot of people experiencing discomfort or not the pleasure, not the goals, not, I don't even like using the word goal, but they're not getting from it what they actually need.
Uchenna: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I. You're, and the cultural piece of it is always there for me. Right. It's always there for me. I, I don't, I look at all of my patients through an intersectional lens.
Surabhi: Yes. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because for me, of course, I know what intersectional lens means, but there might be some people who, PTs professionals who are hearing this in relation to PT for the first time.
How does that relate?
Uchenna: So like what I always tell people [00:27:00] is that. Intersectionality is a way to look at how power intersects, uh, how we live our lives, right? How we access power, how we access resources. It's, it's a way that, you know, when you're thinking about, for example, um, I am first generation American.
My parents were white collar workers. Right. But we were lower middle class, right? We weren't upper class. Us. So from a class standpoint, right, there's a resource allocation for people who are ri we rich and wealthy, versus a lower middle class or poor, right? Mm-hmm. There's a difference between even, um, in my microculture of like Nigerian American, uh, or even black American, right?
They'll say, oh, you're coming to the states for college, or are you coming to states just to work?
Surabhi: Mm, right?
Uchenna: Yes, there's a hierarchy. [00:28:00] It's like, oh, okay. There's, they're the chosen ones right there. And it's like, it's not even like that, but the way that resources are allocated, the way people get favored, the way people get treated.
Right, right. You can look at it from a colorism standpoint, which is, can be under the, the umbrella of racism. Yeah. Right. The lighter skin you are, even if you're, uh, from India, from Asia, from Africa. Right. You're going to be given different resources. You're gonna be mostly. You're gonna be more desirable from a romantic relationship.
Your cardiovascular health risk is lower than someone who is darker skinned. Right. And so when I talk about intersectionality, I'm looking at all of the, the compost, the com components of our
identities.
Mm. And how that impacts a person's health, their choice, their access, their experience in the world. I don't assume, but I, but I am, I'm looking at it from, you're aware of it.
I'm aware of it. I don't make assumptions, but I'm aware [00:29:00] it's very much there.
Surabhi: And there's some things that a person in front of you will share with you if you just. Are listening or maybe even ask the right questions. So I, I do think that most of us, if I'm the patient, I'm not even aware of my intersections and how that plays into whatever ailment I have.
Right? But you as the provider is important to recognize that, you know what, this person's not gonna come out and openly say that, you know what? Because I am poor, this is why I struggle with it more than my wealthy friends. They're not gonna come out and say it, but you, it is something that we need to be aware of because our treatment plan has to.
It, it's gonna change depending on what their actual needs are.
Uchenna: Absolutely. And I think also too, like what, what we also need to remember is that, um, intersectionality helps us make clinical decisions. It helps us look at, um, look at our health situation or our health space with a different, with a more informed lens.
Hmm. Right. It's, it's, I always [00:30:00] tell people that it's almost like a, um. It's almost like a, like an answer book to the test. It's like you have, it's like a structure or like an algorithm to navigate some of the challenges that we have. Yeah. Because it just gives us a little bit more insight.
Surabhi: It's not like what we learned in school.
Like I remember in school it's like, oh, females are more at risk of this injury. And you're like, wait, wait, what? Why? And it's not all females, right? It's, it's, there's so much more than just. Trying to treat gender as binary, trying to treat it as um, just an age issue. You know, there's socioeconomic status, colorism, racism, neighborhoods you grew up in.
Are you, do you have family support? Did you come here as an immigrant by yourself? You know, there's all of these layers. And I actually find that when I openly talk to my clients about some of these issues, they're like, oh, they feel seen. One of my clients has, you know, just vaginismus. She was like, you [00:31:00] are the first person to actually talk about like culture.
And I'm like, culture is huge. And you know, people have seen multiple pelvic PTs and it's just like the topic of sex, how some practitioners might come into it with a bit of discomfort. Many practitioners have discomfort talking about culture or race, and so if you are uncomfortable with it. Maybe referring to somebody who is more comfortable with it, doing your own, like learning.
Um, you know, talk about your, you have a sex counseling program, am I right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Talk about that. 'cause I know in that course you talk about the, um, cultural and, you know Yeah. Intersections.
Uchenna: Absolutely. I, I just wanna say one more thing about intersectionality, and I'll definitely go into it. Um, Collins and obliged, they wrote a great book on intersectionality and health and, and do a lot of research on it.
And they, they said this one thing, they said that people use intersectionality as an analytical tool, so an analytic tool to solve the problems that [00:32:00] they or others around them face. So it gives you like a, a better access to the complexity in your world and the world of others around you. I really want people to resonate with that.
So you're, no one is a monolith. There are so many components to our identity. Yes. And culture is not for only people of color.
Surabhi: No, it's not
Uchenna: culture. Culture is everything. Right? Like, you know, your culture is how you are raised. There is a, there was a miral culture in the, in the larger culture that I grew up with.
There are so many cultures and that actually colors. How we view ourselves in sex, but
Surabhi: yes, the culture of your household. Yeah. Whether you grew up in a religious home. Yes. Did you see your parents touch? Did you have, did you have, you know, were you encouraged to hug each other? Like my parents, we never grew up hugging, kissing, and so, you know, it was like, oh, I'm thrusted to dating life and adulthood and I'm having to navigate all this [00:33:00] myself.
And let me tell you, it has been, it's really. I think that's why I really have empathy for my clients who, you know, may be coming from similar backgrounds because it is hard. There's a lot of unlearning. Absolutely. And, but it's such beautiful work because hey, it opens up your life to more pleasure, sexual pleasure, and outside of sexual pleasure too.
Um, so talk about, yeah, I wanna hear more about your sex counseling certificate program.
Uchenna: So Heather Edwards and I, we created the Pelvic Health Sexuality Counseling Certificate Program. So it's a three month program for anyone who takes care of a pelvis, so PTs, MDs, OTs, PTAs, uh, physician assistants, nurses, you name it.
We developed it for people who want to develop more advanced clinical skill in sexual counseling and education and. We, what we've done is we've created it from a framework that is rooted [00:34:00] in intersectionality and social justice. So we're not just talking about things justice like from a, just a gender binary or anything like that.
We're really giving people a. The education and the skills to be able to have these conversations more comfort. But we also intertwine and require that as we're educating you, you're, you're, you're doing the homework on yourselves first. Yes. So we want people to be working on themselves first and their comfort level, and it's very revealing.
I mean, it's a very, you know, it's only three months, right. But like, you know, we all busy. It's concentrated. Yeah, but it's concentrated. Right? So it's 40 hours of content. So we have, you know, weekly office hours that are live, but they have, they watch prerecorded content, they get handouts, all of that. But we guide everyone through the content together in that cohort.
Amazing. And we have a common language in terms of sex and sexuality, you know, and listen, I. I tell people all the [00:35:00] time, you know, I'm, I'm, I, even though I present like super chill, I'm very much like, you know, type, like I'm very, very hard on myself. Right. And I, I, I am, I wish we had, it was more comprehensive, but like, what can you, we, you can't teach everything about sex in 40 hours, right?
Oh yeah. Um, so we did the best that we could in, in selecting topics and subjects, but we talk about. Power dynamics. We talk about, um, sex work. We talk about sex medicine, we talk about sex and aging and pregnancy, and we talk about, you know, how the history of sex, the, the sexological work and what culture and the impact of minority stress.
And yes. How that plays into, and, and, you know, sexual scripting and cultural stereotypes and how that, that kind of chips away at our sexual creativity, how that chips [00:36:00] away, um, at our, our humanity, our sexual humanity. And yes. So it's, it's, I'm, we're really proud of it. We're a year in, we're on our fourth cohort now.
That's incredible. It's exciting. Yeah,
Surabhi: and it's exciting coming from the perspective of a pelvic PT who understands the physical aspect of it, as well as the mental, spiritual, psychological, you know, all of those other aspects of sexual wellness as well. Can you talk about some elements of pleasure that people don't explore enough?
Um, you know, we know P in V Sex is very, very. taught to us. Movies, TV shows, you know, porn, it's all all about p and v, but what are some areas that people can explore outside of that?
Uchenna: So, you know, I'm a, I always tell people that how, you know, pleasure, we have to first give ourselves permission to experience [00:37:00] pleasure.
So that's the first thing that I work on with my clients. Are you really giving yourself permission?
Surabhi: Mm-hmm.
Uchenna: Really. And then it's also, it's, and I always say, you know, we use the term unlearning a lot. Um, and I think it's not necessarily about unlearning, it's about creating space for new learning.
Surabhi: Mm-hmm.
Uchenna: Because unlearning kind of puts, you know, I, depending on the person, but for the most part I try to say, let's just create space for new opportunities. Hmm. Let's create space where we can think about sex and pleasure in different ways. You know, because when people talk about sex, sometimes they'll say, so one of the first things we do in the program is we get, we get the definitions out because someone will say intimacy.
And I'm like, okay. Do you mean intimacy, like extreme emotional closeness?
Surabhi: Mm,
Uchenna: right. Yeah. Or do you [00:38:00] mean sex? Like the act of sex? Yes, because those are two different things. Do you want vulnerability? Do you want interconnection? Right. So kind of I think from some of the first steps is just being honest with yourself about what you want.
Is it that you want the act of sex? Is it that you want to be touched? Externally, internally, you are not sure you just wanna be touched, right? Or do you want that personal connection? Right? And, and then that's when I say this is when you can, you know, kind of bust out the ideas of pleasure and that, okay, let's start with sensuality, right?
Mm-hmm. Sensuality is the experience of the senses.
Surabhi: That's like the whole Kama Sutra. The whole point is, you know, people think it's just like a bunch of sex positions, but it's like the whole point is to explore the sensus and the sensuality of sex. Um, right. And it's kind of cool that there were [00:39:00] documents way back then talking about this and then you're like, way ba well, how can we haven't made progress?
Like what? Like, what? What's happened? And I mean, we, we know historically things have happened, um, with colonization and, you know, changing the way that indigenous learnings have been passed down and interrupting that process. So suddenly we are just not gonna talk about sex. Just not gonna learn about sex.
And what we're learning from school is just very, just reproduction.
Uchenna: Yes. Yes. And when you think about. The concepts of, of sensuality, like exploring, exploring the senses to like have that deep connection to be lost in your sense sensations and your emotions and your feelings and to, I like, I'm gonna bring back that word, luxuriate.
Surabhi: Such a good word.
Uchenna: And it's not like, and people are like, well, because sometimes people get [00:40:00] frustrated. So when I bring this up, people get frustrated, but like, no, but like, I need this because this is what sex is to me, penetration. Right? And so I say, cool, cool. I'm not poo-pooing that, right? I'm not having you unlearn that.
Surabhi: You're just making space for more.
Uchenna: Yeah. I'm just, I'm just adding. To, to this, this, this whole option of sex for you. Yes. Right. So I'm not, I'm, because I don't tell people, you know what, that's the wrong way to look at sex. That's not helpful. That's just not helpful, everyone, it's not helpful to tell your patient or client, that's the wrong way to look at it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. I don't tell my, I don't tell my patients, oh, they should prioritize, um, outer course. Right. Especially like my heterosexual patients. I don't say that, or my patients who primarily engage in penetrative sex. Right? Because not all heterosexual individuals engage in penetrative sex.
It, I just, I don't think of sex in that space. Yeah. I [00:41:00] don't assume. I just say how, let's, let's add to this, like let's add to the sensation. Let's bring in our, let's bring in our awareness, right? You can use the concepts of mindfulness. You can use sensuality, right?
Surabhi: You know, I think of this. In terms of cooking, when you learn to cook, you might know like two or three dishes and that's like your repertoire.
And you might really like those dishes, but that doesn't mean you can't learn new dishes and that you realize, hey, I actually really like this too. Or you try something, you're like, that was a fail. And we don't, we don't judge ourselves in the kitchen quite as much as we do in the bedroom. Absolutely. So when we try something and they're like, that didn't go well, you know, we internalize that instead of realizing, well, it's just another recipe that, or another thing that I'm.
Creating and exploring. Right. Um, and I, for me, I like the, I, I think in analogies a lot, and I think that that's one of the powerful analogies is like we all eat every day, you know? Mm-hmm. We all, it, it's very [00:42:00] commonplace for us to have like favorite foods and this and that. And we can confidently say like, I love chocolate chip cookies.
Like, that's my favorite dessert. But then when it comes to sex, we struggle to say, what is your favorite? What, what do you like, what do you not like? Um. Communicating with your partner? I think what you're, what you're saying is like it's you first, right? It's like you, it's first before you then start adding on that interaction with your partner or partners.
Uchenna: Absolutely. And when I tell people to think about what they're trying to feel first before we think about other ideas of pleasure, because sometimes we change chase difference for the sake of difference. We choose novelty for the sake of novelty without actually understanding what our craving to connect with.
'cause then it falls flat. It's kind of like when people ask me like, what's the best sex toy? Like I did a a, I did a bourbon tails last week about it because it's like, I don't know, it's so individual. I dunno. What are you looking to feel?
Surabhi: Yeah.
Uchenna: Right. [00:43:00] Because you know, they may think I'm gonna suggest a vibrator and be like, no, you just need some nipple clamps.
Surabhi: Yeah.
Uchenna: You know, and you don't need to put them on your nipples. You just might like the i the experience of like that tension, that pinch, right? Yeah. You might like to be restrained, right? You might like the process of feeling the restraint. You might like shibari or rope, you might like power di playing with power dynamics, right?
That alone. Is very kind of interesting, right? Mm-hmm. You're saying, oh, I would love for my partner to dominate, right? Because sometimes people say, I want my partner to initiate. Do you want your partner to initiate? Mm. Or is it that you want to play with dynamics? Yes, you actually want to be in control, but you want them to initiate in a way that ple, you know, like kind of deep diving into that a little bit, you know?
Because you can explore pleasure. By through cooking, through art, through music, yes. You can explore it through playing with power dynamics. You [00:44:00] can explore it through, um, restraint. You can res ex explore it through playing with just different types of play. It's, it's just a adult playground, just a, a adult playground.
It's an adult playground. SNL playground freedom. The freedom that you see children playing because they're just like, this is fun. Yeah.
Surabhi: They just do it because it's fun.
Uchenna: And you can just say, let me explore it because I'm interested. I'm curious 'cause I don't really know what feels good. I don't know what I like.
So I'm just gonna play with this because I'm, I'm curious. Yeah. And it may not be for you or maybe for you.
Surabhi: I love that., can I ask you a few questions about you and Yeah. What do you do to take care of yourself every day? Because I know you're a busy woman. Listen and. Also being a black woman in academia in this space, talking openly about sexual um, health and [00:45:00] intersectionality with sexual health.
Um, what do you do to take care of yourself? What are some like simple things,
Uchenna: you know?
That is a very good question. I, I, I wax and wane in terms of my, um, effectiveness in, in
Surabhi: fair enough
Uchenna: in implementing some of these strategies. But I think the number one thing for me is travel. Um, love that. I love, you know, I'm always traveling. I'm always on a plane and. I, I enjoy, I enjoy exploring those spaces or new spaces or familiar spaces that I know are safe.
Um, and have people that I know love me and I'm around my ride or dies, you know? Yeah. Um, I think that's important. I think one practice is. You [00:46:00] know, if from a business standpoint, right, uh, one of the best advices I've been given was to have a board of directors. Um, and not just like about my business, but just have people around you to advise you, and I think identifying those people in my life.
Who I know can kind of be my buffer. Yeah. Be my support.
Surabhi: Help you be your sounding board and yes. Give you feedback.
Uchenna: Yes.
Surabhi: That's such good advice.
Uchenna: I think that like I have, you know, and some people say like some 'cause like you have different friends for different purposes, right? Yeah, I have. I call, I, you know, my Megan, she'll be fine.
My best friend Megan, she is, we've been friends since we were 15 and she just has this blind loyalty to me. And it's so refreshing because no matter what, right? Three kids later, marriage, she's still blindly like, [00:47:00] I love that If something happens, she's like, I don't like that person. They're dead to me. I, I, most of
Surabhi: the types of friends you need.
You know, who are by you a hundred percent.
Uchenna: A hundred percent. Like she is so funny to me because she's like, I'll tell her that's something and, and she completely cannot focus on what I'm actually talking about. She's upset that at, she's
Surabhi: upset for you,
Uchenna: for me. And she's like, that, they're dead to me. You know?
Do I need to come down there? So like there's, I think that's a practice of like having people around you that will. Always back you up
Surabhi: your community who are like there for you. Yeah.
Uchenna: Yeah. I really spend, I spend time in those spaces and then I also spend time in spaces where, where like culturally, like spaces where I, I have the same culture.
Yeah. You know, like, yeah. My, like [00:48:00] Nigerian friends, like my, you know, 'cause like we're the first gen Nigerian crew, which is like, that's awesome. A whole, a whole different,
Surabhi: yeah. Totally different than being an immigrant.
Uchenna: Yeah. Yeah. It, it, it's so weird because we're, it's, it's like you're almost like this snowflake Nigerian because you were, and like the way our parents raised us, like these eighties babies, right?
Yeah. And, um, and it's, there's, there is a solve for that, but I think I. If I were to give people advice who are in those spaces who kind of feel, um, marginalized or feel different? It is hard.
Surabhi: It is hard. Yeah.
Uchenna: It is harder.
Surabhi: It is hard. And I, it's
Uchenna: isolated.
Surabhi: I appreciate you saying that because so often we think we're doing it wrong because we feel certain ways, but it's just factually it is harder and that's why leaning on community is even more important.
And so I'm happy to hear you saying that. Um, and travel. Especially traveling to places where, you know, you're with people of the global [00:49:00] majority and you know, it's, it's different being in, it's different being in certain spaces. Um,
Uchenna: absolutely. And I think, um, another thing, uh, one last thing I'll say about that is I think I, I also go to conferences where there are no physical therapists.
Surabhi: Oh,
Uchenna: okay. There are no, like, they're just, I go to tech conferences, I go to conferences where my other parts of my brain are stimulated.
Surabhi: Yeah. So it's not just
Uchenna: all concentrated on,
Surabhi: you know, public health. Public health.
Uchenna: Because I think that there's something freeing about being like this, the singular person who like, they're like, why is this physical therapist at this tech conference?
You know? Yeah. And, but you have really, you meet other people and I think that engages, um, engages your brain and it engages op an openness.
Surabhi: Yes.
Uchenna: But I think is actually quite fresh and quite [00:50:00] reparative.
Hmm.
Uchenna: Uh, because it is truly a collaborative space. So I always tell people, if you could put yourself outside of.
Like out of, like, even just if you kind of have a multidisciplinary approach to your life and career.
Surabhi: Yeah.
Uchenna: I think that that is a great, um, buffer. Um,
Surabhi: I think too early in our careers, my career anyway, it was all about pt every course, every weekend, you know, just surrounded by it and you kind of get sick of each other after a while.
You're like, wait, like I need different. And generally speaking, PTs are, you know, type A or really academic and really competitive, um, insecure, anxious, right. Like, you know, just generalizing. But, and being around that all the time can be really hard. Uh, a lot, you know, we, my pt, my best PT friends and, you know, we've all fallen out of touch because we've all found our little other communities, which, and whenever we get [00:51:00] together it's, it's great.
It's fine. But you know, we also need. Our own separate identities. Um, what's something you're really passionate about right now? Oh, oh, could be anything.
Uchenna: Um, perimenopause and menopause. It's, uh, you know, I'm, I'm fully grown. I'm 41, and I think that, uh, I, I am really, it's really, I'm really passionate about that right now.
I'm really passionate about understanding that, particularly for people of color. And, um, I really, you know, that's what, that's really what I'm really passionate about. I'm also really passionate about, um, I. The premiere of Bridgeton in the summer. I'm a little upset. I am so excited. I'm so upset that they are just doing us [00:52:00] like this.
Like it's been a year. Well, you have to wait for so long, so long. This is insane. I'm a little, I'm a little, I I'm in my feelings. Um, I'm a little mad, but it's, it's okay. It's,
Surabhi: it's so good. I've rewatched season one and two and Queen Charlotte recently. Oh, I love Queen Charlotte. Queen Charlotte. I, I actually liked Queen Charlotte the best.
It was the best. So good. Good. So well done. The actors and Oh my God. It just, the story, ugh. You just like, you're pulled in.
Uchenna: You're
pulled in.
And why did I cry? Why called? I was like, I called. What is wrong with my eyeballs? Like, I cannot even, it was so good. So good. So yeah, I'm lowkey obsessed. And I know you weren't expecting that answer, but No, I wasn't.
I,
Surabhi: that's what I love. That's what I love about this question. 'cause I think it shows how. Diverse. We are within [00:53:00] ourselves with our interests and our de joys and our passions. You are a very passionate person, so I'm like, I know you're passionate about things. So, um, tell me how can people best connect with you?
We talked about Instagram, uc logic.
Uchenna: Yes. Um, you can go to my website, www do ww dot uc logic.com where you can find, um, a bunch of resources. My book. Um, you can book a session with me if you want. Um, you can access, uh, if you wanna participate in our program. If you're a healthcare provider, please do. We are accepted.
I
Surabhi: will definitely share links for that. When does that start? When does the next cohort start?
Uchenna: The next cohort starts May 15th, um, but our applications end, um, may March 31st, but we are giving people a grace period into April.
Surabhi: Okay. Amazing. And do you have any, um. Things coming up. Other than that, anything you'd like to share?
Any launches?
Uchenna: Well, um, just, just this next cohort, I am, I'm heading to [00:54:00] Singapore in June to speak at the International Urogynecology Association sexual health.
Surabhi: You are so cool.
Uchenna: No, no. I'm just a normal human being.
Surabhi: That's what, that's what all the really cool people say. Nope.
Uchenna: But yeah, I know. And, um, just, I know, just chucking along, just doing me.
Surabhi: Nice. If you could tell me one thing you could change about the world, what would that be?
I.
Uchenna: I would like our, I would like every human being in the world to, um, always center each other's humanity
Surabhi: mm-hmm.
Uchenna: And protect each other with, to really, really focus on the greater good versus what benefits us individually. Individually. Yeah. Uh, I, I would really like that to happen. [00:55:00]
Surabhi: And I think if we, if we create those communities within our, our circles, hopefully that spreads.
Um, you know, I come from a very community oriented culture and then moving to Canada when I was 10 was like a shock. 'cause I was like, wait, everybody just cares about themselves. Okay, cool. Um, so I love that. I love that. What would you say is your biggest strength?
Uchenna: My, um, capacity for silliness. I have a very large capacity for silliness. I do. I just, I mean, you know, I just love being silly and I love it. Just that's, I think that's one of my biggest strengths. I
Surabhi: people lose their silliness as they get older. And the fact that you've retained it and nurtured it is huge.
Uchenna: They do. And I am. Fiercely loyal.
Surabhi: Yeah. Well, thank you so [00:56:00] much for sharing this conversation with me today. You see, you are, um, so full of wisdom and you are also very nurturing in terms of not just the conversation, but I feel like you're a nurturer of communities and. The impact that you have, even with your Instagram, people talk about it when you're not, when we're not on Instagram, like when I hang out with my pelvic v PTs, we're like, Hey, did you see the last bourbon tails?
Like literally we talk about it. So I think that you, the impact that you have is bigger than you may even know. Um, and I'm really grateful that people get to hear this conversation and learn from you and go check out your, um, sexual sexuality counseling program. Um. Your page and all of that stuff.
Uchenna: Thank you so much.
I I, you are a gift to me. I'm so glad you're in my space and I just can't wait for us to do more collabs in the [00:57:00] future.
Surabhi: Me too. Me too. And hopefully we get to meet in person. 'cause I'm, how about I'm like, I don't, I feel like I have, but I don't think we have. Right, right. I know. We, we haven't. Yeah, we haven't.
It'll happen. It'll happen. And I'm excited for a huge hug.
Um, all right, my friends, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, share it to your stories, tag us, let us know what you think. Um, and thank you so much for staying till the end and, um, have a wonderful rest of your day.
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Mom Strength and being part of this important conversation. Check out the show notes for more info and links and we'll chat again real soon.
