42. Stop dieting and find food freedom with Anika Dhalla

Written By Surabhi Veitch
MoSt #42: Stop dieting and find food freedom with Anika Dhalla
Surabhi Veitch, The Passionate Physio

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Surabhi Veitch interviews dietician Anika Dhalla on diet culture growing up as the only Indian family within a rural Canadian community. They discuss how diet culture impacts communities, how fat or weight isn’t the whole picture when it comes to health, and why genetics need to be considered in chronic conditions.

We discuss:

  • How genetics plays into chronic health conditions like diabetes

  • Why weight isn’t really the issue

  • Why a “decolonized” approach to food is important (healthy doesn’t equal salads)

  • How diet culture comes out in Canada and in India

  • Anika’s experience doing her senior thesis in India

  • Are sugar-sweetened beverages the problem?

  • Colorism in India

  • How to respond to family and friends making self-depreciating or fat-phobic comments?

  • How diet culture and misogyny also impacts men

Anika Dhalla, Registered Dietician

I’m a Registered Dietitian out in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. My practice focuses around chronic illnesses from diabetes out to Crohn’s disease. I work a lot with individuals who have IBS and perceived food fears. My ultimate goal for my clients regardless of their condition is to heal their relationship with food, and find food freedom.

Connect with Surabhi Veitch:

  • Surabhi: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, This is Surabhi Veitch, and I'm so excited to bring you back another episode of Mom Strength with my special guest here today, Anika Dhalla, , I won't tell you how she let me know how to pronounce her last name. I'll let her say it. But Anika and I met online through, Maiya, one of her colleagues who's also a dietician, Maiya and Anika are dieticians and we did a fantastic Instagram live together a few months ago, and I was , I need to talk to her more. She is full of wisdom, experience and I love the way she presents in her information. I'm gonna introduce her. So she's a registered dietician out of Hamilton, Ontario, and she works virtually all across Ontario and she can sometimes see clients across Canada as well.

    Her practice focuses around chronic illnesses like diabetesTo Crohn's disease and she works with a lot of individuals who have IBS and perceived food fears. Her ultimate goal for her clients, regardless of their condition, is to heal their relationship with food and find food freedom. So [00:01:00] that's what we're gonna be talking about today.

    We're gonna be talking about diet culture, decolonizing food and food freedom. Welcome, Anika. I'm so excited you're

    Anika: here. I'm so excited too. It's awesome to finally get to chat one on one. I think our Instagram live was a huge success. Um, maybe for our followers, but also just for us too.

    I think it was such a great way to connect and meet people, um, that are like-minded as well as, you know,

    Surabhi: in the field. Where in it, in, in the physio. Not as much in the physio, but in the fitness field. In the diet. Mm-hmm. , diet, nutrition field. There is a lot of diet culture that's. You know, sugar coated as non diet culture and when you have the same values, you immediately connect over that.

    Yeah. So I wanna hear from you. What is, Tell me a little bit about yourself, your own experience with diet culture. Um, tell me everything.

    Anika: Yeah. I love that pun by the way. just a side note, uh, so obviously, you already introduced me, my name is Anika Dhalla, like a dolla bill , and, [00:02:00] uh, registered dietician out in Hamilton, Ontario.

    But yes, I focus quite a bit with individuals with chronic illnesses that, you know, I felt like a lot of the time when we deal with those illnesses, , or even prevention of diabetes, hypertension, there's a lot of diet culture that goes into it where people are just kind of told that, Oh, you can't eat this, you can't eat that, You can't have, you know, you can't have the , donut at the party.

    you can't have carbs, you can't have the bread, you can't have any salt, you can't do that. Like, it's just all these can't, can't, can't, can't, can't. Yes. And then there's no food that you can eat aside from salad. Mm-hmm. , Which is not really an option for a lot of my clients. Cause I wanna say that most of them, maybe 80% of them are.

    Anika: , they're brown and , we don't eat salads. So it's

    Surabhi: just , you're like, I could have saag, or I could have salad, , you know, what am I going to eat?, I'm not having onion. I'm

    Anika: having

    Surabhi: and cucumber and plain lettuce and people are obsessed over their salad dressings, which I'm , okay, good dressing is [00:03:00] great, but that's not , that's just not gonna jive for us.

    You know?

    Anika: It's not the cultural staple, you know? And I think that , that's a big part of it is when we're looking at this chronic illness prevention or managing chronic illness, individuals go into this space of, well, I can't have this and I can't have that.

    And then my doctor told me that I have to have salad all the time and I can't eat rice. And I'm like, What? what? I know. It's just like a huge red flag. And then like, big question marks start going off in my head. I'm like, Who's your doctor?

    Surabhi: And why are they, That's what I wanna say. Like, if you speak to doctors, they're.

    They're not educated on nutrition. No. You know, they might take a couple lectures, but it's the same with movement. They're not, they learn movement for one week. Like physiotherapy. School is minimum two years and then you're taking a ton of post-grad courses. and that's after an undergraduate degree.

    So for anyone listening, if your doctor's giving you advice on something that is out of their scope without sending you a referral to a dietician, to a physiotherapist, to [00:04:00] somebody who is an expert in that, just take it with a grain of salt. Like, doesn't have to be a fact. .

    Anika: Yeah. And no pun intended there,

    Surabhi: Yeah. With a grain, with a few grains of salt salt's. Okay.

    Anika: Yeah. Salt's fine. Um, yeah, like most physicians actually get about a week of nutrition training as well. Mm-hmm. and, um, you know, that. Like us in that expert category. Cause it takes four years for school, then we have to do a comprehensive competitive internship.

    Um, and that too, like as a dietician, like I don't just work in my private practice, I also work in, you know, long term care. So I'm working in those spaces where like I'm working in an interdisciplinary team of physiotherapists, um, speech language pathologists, physicians, nursing, like I'm working with everybody to provide that care for the residents there too.

    So, you know, like we work in that healthcare field and it's just like, refer to us, we definitely know what we're doing. Yeah. Um, [00:05:00] and like giving you the recommendation of, okay, yeah, just have a salad for every meal is not gonna.

    Surabhi: No,

    Anika: Like, it's not good enough to me. Like, I'm like, that sounds like a really boring life of a lot of vinegar and dressing

    Yeah. And that you just have to like live with.

    Surabhi: Yeah. And you don't get all your nutrients, you don't get your protein, you don't get your, you know, so much from there. And the interesting thing is, we, we were talking about diet culture and it's often blamed on like the individual people, right? Yeah. Like, oh, I'm, uh, I need to separate from diet culture.

    But ultimately it's a huge systemic issue that even Yeah. This within healthcare. So we can't blame our clients or individual people for feeling this way about their bodies and their food. Definitely not. And it's just like the system that, that we're in. Um, definitely.

    Anika: And I think that like when we look at the, the big overarching thing is like we've lived in this society of diet culture, right?

    Like, so it starts. [00:06:00] I would even say like in the 18 hundreds, people were like, Oh, well we have to like be healthier to live longer. But like, what is healthy? Like healthy is in quotes there. Um, cuz healthy could be looking different for everybody. And it depends on your lifestyle. It depends on like your, like genetics, it depends on your like social status and like, um, socioeconomic status, your access to food, your access to clean drinking water.

    Like at least that's what it was in the 18 hundreds. But none of that is changed. And I think that that's stuff that like, we don't even consider, We put that shame and blame onto people in the healthcare system of like, Oh, well, you know, like it's just because of their weight. That's the reason why they look like that or that's the reason why that they have all these chronic conditions.

    But without even taking into consideration all of the other aspects of things like, you know, What, What about their family history? Like both of their parents have diabetes and as well as their grandparents [00:07:00] and their sisters and brothers have diabetes. Why wouldn't they have diabetes or prediabetes?

    It's like saying like, Oh yeah, like my hair is brown and my mom's hair is brown and my dad's hair is brown and then my grandma's hair is brown. When I suddenly land up with blonde hair, , it can happen, but the likely this is very low. Yeah, right. So looking at that genetic kind of component to things is really important because then we actually see that bigger picture, right?

    Then we see that like, Okay, well there's a, there's something else going on here. Or, Hey, maybe they don't have diabetes. Maybe they have other types of insulin resistance that like is not being explored because it's just getting umbrella termed because of their weight,

    Surabhi: right? Yeah. It's so quick to judge based on someone's weight that their health conditions.

    You know, due to their weight, your pain, your knee pain, your, your back pain, your, your diabetes, it's all just weight related. Right. And that's exactly, it's just a problem to even blame the weight. Yeah. Um, what is your, I'm sorry, like, cuz I'm just thinking you grew up in Canada, but your [00:08:00] background is, you know, Indian and I grew up in India and I'm Indian until I was 10.

    I moved here when I was 10. And so I noticed a huge difference in diet culture there versus here. Yeah. In the sense that there I was very thin. I, you know, as a child it wasn't, it was never restrictive. Never. It was eat more, eat more, eat more, have more sweets, have everything. My grandparents used to buy me all the sweets to try to fatten me up.

    And then I moved here and I was still on the small side, but it was like suddenly people were trying to lose weight all the time. And people were asking me for advice on how to. Get then. And I was like, It's genetic. I'm . I can't give you any advice. And so for me it was a huge culture shock in that way because it's a hu you know, a big difference in, in dye culture.

    How did you find it in your home?

    Anika: I grew up here in Canada and I was, I was born and raised in the prairies. So, um, people around me were primarily white. I wanna say. [00:09:00] Like I was the only colored kid growing up until I was like in grade four, I wanna say. Wow. Yeah. So I was. I don't even know what like you guys are doing because like my household, like we speak other languages and like we do prayers that are very different.

    We don't celebrate Christmas, we don't do all these things, but we have this central idea of food and like my friends would come over to our house and my mom would always be cooking everything and just like being super mom because that's what she is, , um, just in my eyes at least. Um, but she would be cooking everything from scratch just because like we didn't have an Indian store and um That's true.

    So in our household, like food was a big part of our culture cuz that's all we had really like to hold onto. Yes. Um, and then, you know, as I grew up and, you know, left the house, left the nest, uh, you know, in 19 years I was able to really see that. Oh my gosh. My mom was always watching her [00:10:00] wait and I never knew about it because we were always just cooking at home, but like, maybe it was because like she didn't want to eat from outside places.

    Like from outside sources. Yeah. Yeah. Um, which like, again, we got to learn all these Indian dishes, but it's because she was like, I'm not eating like outside food

    Surabhi: cause I might gain

    Anika: too much weight or, Yeah, exactly. And like, even throughout, like, cuz I have a few siblings and she, like, I, I'm the oldest, so I would always like watch her be pregnant,

    Um, and I would just watch her be pregnant. Um, she was always doing like her aerobics classes, like eight months into her pregnancies. Like she. She was just like super active going on runs with her stroller and

    Surabhi: like, which is like also so rare from moms of that generation. So like yeah. Kudos to your mom for being active, especially as a brown mom.

    Like that is probably a huge, out of the norm, right? Yeah.

    Anika: Well she was also, uh, like a professional athlete in India, so she was very much like, she had a lot of, [00:11:00] a lot of like, athleticism that she just needed to pent up and go with it cuz it, otherwise it would just be like chaos, stress, probably . Yeah. So I think it was just a big stress reliever for her.

    Yeah. Um, I can't speak on everything of her experience aside from like what I've witnessed, but, you know, I, I did realize that like, oh it was cuz she was worried about her weight when I was in my teenage years and then like as I grew older I was like, Oh wow. Like a lot of Indian moms aren't like that.

    It's like exactly what you sort of Yeah. Um, alluded to there it was like a lot of Indian moms aren't like that. Um, and you know, growing up I didn't even realize I was different in that Indian scope until like later when I moved away and I was like, oh my God, there's other Indians here, .

    Surabhi: Well, and I'm sure that some of the culture she absorbed was from living in a place where it's so white, right?

    Like you, you live, you live in a culture that's [00:12:00] surrounded by, you know, one attitude. You start to absorb that even if you're Indian or even if you're a different background. Um, definitely. That's so interesting. And so how did you feel about your own body? Did you feel the pressure as well once you became a teenager and you were like, Okay, I also have to wash my weight.

    Or was that, was it? So

    Anika: I am one of those people that got like really big boobs, really quickly, . So I like had these big boobs that were like you. Huge. And I was just like tiny little lady and like, or little girl I guess with like boobs. Yeah. So I was always like self-conscious about that and like, as I grew older I was like, Oh, these are great

    But I know

    Surabhi: meanwhile all the, all the ones with small chests, we were like, I hate this girl.

    Anika: Right. But like, it took me a while to get there and like, you know, my mom always, cuz she like would wear low tops and stuff and she'd be like, Just, just do it. Just want it cause you have it. And then I like realized that like it would get me.

    Like into trouble. Cause like I'd obviously have these [00:13:00] huge boobs that I was just like, Yeah, yeah. Um, but like that I think was like a big, it wasn't really about my weight, it was always about my boobs. Yeah. So I'd wear like t-shirts in a pool and stuff. So I was nervous about like going to swimming lessons and I was a competitive swimmer and like all my friends were like little sticks and I was just like, boobs,

    So I like, couldn't really, like, that was my biggest concern I think growing up. Um, and as I got older again, I like really like, just was like, this is awesome. I can do so many. Yeah. This is your body. Like I can do so many things with my body and like still have these boobs. Um, so I think that's like where it didn't affect me as much, but I know that it affected my siblings a lot more in terms of like, okay, well, like we have to look a certain way.

    And like my sister, she was in like the Mist Canada pageant. Like she was the winner of that pageant, uh, back in the. Early 2000, whatever, 2012 or 2010, I can't even remember. It was a [00:14:00] while ago. Um, but, you know, she was like dealing with pageant life and like all of that. So it really affected that aspect and it really actually pushed me to understand that diet culture and like pursue my education in dietetics actually was like cool.

    Seeing that sort of, um, what, like your body, what your expectation of a body is supposed to be and what the standard of beauty is. And like of course my like old Indian grandfather would always be like, ah, okay, you're the smart one and your sister is the pretty one. My sister is very smart. Like I'm talking like she's the sharpest knife in the drawer.

    And, um, I'm smart, but I, I think I'm pretty too. So it was kind of just like, Oh, okay, that's fun because my sister was like thin and like tall. Right.

    Surabhi: It's that combination of like the patriarchal view or like the, you know, or not even patriarch, like the misogynistic view, right? Yeah. Like the women who are thin, are tall, are, are the pretty ones.

    And you're [00:15:00] like, I'm, I'm also beautiful, but I just don't have that, you know, body. Yeah.

    Anika: It's like, sorry, I'm five feet tall. and like big boobs over here, , you know, like five feet, big boobs. And I'm like, here. And my sister's like super tall and gorgeous and like, you know, she's like, not that she's, she's very, very, very beautiful, but like, so am I.

    Come on . Yeah. So I think that like standard of beauty was like very pronounced in our household because like I've got a very tall, gorgeous sister and I'm a very small. Gorgeous lady . So, you know, we had this space of like, what's tall, what's small, what's pretty, what's not pretty. Yes. Um, and then when it came to the food aspect, I think like as I got older again, like we're kind of progressing through my life history right now.

    Um, In my mid twenties, I was able to actually like go and live in India and do my senior thesis there. That's awesome. And that's where like [00:16:00] things really started to hit me where I was like, Oh, chronic illness is a completely different ballgame there. Um, and like especially in the, as of women, so like women in chronic illnesses in India, they hide a lot of the times if they have diabetes or hypertension.

    Hmm. Um, and if you actually look, there's a book called, um, Sugar Intention, uh, by Leslie Weaver. I think that's her name. Uh, you can fact check that . But she writes this book about she actually interviewed women in India about sugar and sugar being diabetes. Right. Cause that's how we refer to diabetes in India as like, Oh, well you, your sugar.

    Sugar's high. Yeah. It's like that means you have diabetes. They don't wanna say diabetes because there's this taboo around it. Right. But this sugar is high. So women actually hide the fact that they have high sugar, uh, because [00:17:00] they don't want to be seen as failures. Right. Wow. They don't wanna be seen as, you know, Oh, well we don't feed our family properly and that's why we have diabetes.

    So a lot of the time women end up with like, um, diabetes, keto ketoacidosis, uh, because they're not treating their diabetes. So that's what like Leslie Weaver found in her book. But then my research really focused around, okay, well what about like the food? What about the process food that's coming through India?

    And like, do those things need to have potentially an excise tax? So, you know, other countries have did done this, like England, South Africa. Um, some places in South America, Mexico, they've done this excise tax on sugar sweetened beverages, just like Canada was considering it earlier this year as well. Um, so that was why I kind of was branching off and being like, Okay, well we'll talk to [00:18:00] another quote unquote Commonwealth country.

    I'm not talking about that, but

    Surabhi: Club wealth

    Anika: countries. Um, you know, gimme my diamond.

    Surabhi: Um, I know. Send it back right now.

    Anika: Just give us the diamond back. Um, you know, so we're talking about another quote unquote Commonwealth country cuz I, I got a scholarship that dealt with Commonwealth countries, so then we're able to look at different, um, countries within that kind of area, geo area, which is the entire world because of colonization.

    Yeah. Um, so looking at, okay, well how does that compare to the Canadian diaspora. In the Indian diaspora, Like what's the difference? So the major differences that we found was, okay, first of all, like taxes are dumb. So like that was not an option. And also there's like fat shaming in that, right? Like, it's like, oh, well, like the reason why we're taxing is the this because like people are gaining weight.

    So like no more sugar sweetened beverages, [00:19:00] right? But if you look at what is considered a sugar sweetened beverage, things like boost on sure. Nutritional supplements, those are considered sugar sweetened beverages as well in certain areas because, um, you know, they like, there's like some, some countries look at like, okay, well if it has milk in it, it's not considered a sugar sweetened beverage.

    But then those tend to be the most sweet. So like, what are we doing? Yeah. But then there's like things in India where they don't have milk in them and they're considered a sugar sweetened beverage, but they're a nutritional supplement, right? So like, if you're not able to afford the food, but you can afford nutritional supplements, Why would

    Surabhi: we tax that?

    Yeah. You tax those people more and then they may not be able to even afford

    Anika: that. Right. And they can't eat anything. Yeah. Right. So like that was like the ultimate thing that we like came to the conclusion of in the research. But the other nuances are what actually is what got published. So like that's the stuff that got published of the, like West is best rhetoric.

    So the stuff that comes out is like, [00:20:00] oh, well, you know, the, actually the wealthier people in India are the ones with more chronic illnesses because they're actually eating more westernized food. They've come away from their own culture foods, cultural foods. Right. And that just puts them into a spot of, okay, well we're having more Western foods, we're having a more Western diet, and we're having more processed foods.

    Surabhi: Well, I see this firsthand in. This is just casually not research, but my, everyone in my family, in my generation was born in India, except for my cousin who was born in the US. Mm-hmm. and body size we're all about the same size. She was bigger, raised in a America, eating like Americans like just naturally.

    Mm-hmm. . The other thing I see now is my wealthier cousins in India are eating. Like when we went to visit last, I brought my husband, he's white. I was like, after our marriage, we went for our honeymoon. It was fantastic. We stayed at my cousins and their cook is like amazing. Right? All the [00:21:00] Indian food. I'm like, give me the Italy, give me the chiat.

    They gave me the everything. Mm-hmm. But then they were not eating that stuff for breakfast and lunch. Mm-hmm. , they were eating an omelet with cheese. Cheese on everything. And like, I'm like, I'm not saying that those foods are unhealthy by any means, but that's not traditional Indian foods. Yeah. And your bodies for generations are not used to eating like that every single day.

    And now you're giving yourself just that. Or they would eat like even a doza. With like cheese. And I'm like, this is like glass for me, right? Cuz I'm South Indian. And I'm like, Yeah. And they, they are too. But it's the culture of we can afford this stuff, We can afford Pizza Hut, we can afford dominoes, we can afford the, you know, the fast food.

    Cause it is more expensive than like, traditional Indian foods. But it's like, almost like flaunting like, I can afford this now, so I'm gonna eat this. Mm-hmm. . But then there,

    Anika: and that's like totally in our culture, right? Is like, like think about like the things, like Indians love jewelry, right? Like we just talked about the diamond.

    Like could we just talk about that ? So like, we love our jewelry, so like we [00:22:00] love to flaunt our wealth in some regard. So like, flaunting our wealth with food is not an uncommon practice. Yeah. Right? Like, you know, you have a big party, your mom's gonna throw at all the stuff. She's like, We're getting the copper dishes out.

    We're gonna make sure everything's set up. Get the burners, get this, get that. Like we're gonna make everyth. because flaunting our, like, giving of food. Because food is not just food in India and it's not food to anybody. Like it's food is everything.

    Surabhi: Yeah. And like many cultures are like this. Like my Italian friends, Croatian friends, it's the same thing.

    Their moms pull out like a whole, and I'm like, literally there's like five of us. Mm-hmm. . And I feel, I actually feel bad when there's too much food cuz I feel like it's wasted. Mm-hmm. and it's, it's like nobody needs to eat that much in one sitting, but it is part of the culture to like, yeah, we made it, we are wealthy enough to do this.

    Okay so we're gonna do, Yeah. And

    Anika: you see that like in Indian cultures and then like it's, it's known. Like, here's my jewelry, here's this, here's that. You look at all my sarees and you're like, oh my God, why ? [00:23:00] Um, like why do you have the stack.

    Suitcases full of Indian clothes that you

    Surabhi: don't wear. It's the suitcases for me. I'm like, like at least display them so you can like, look at how pretty it is hidden in a suitcase under bed. It's like one day

    Anika: they're, because one day they're gonna be worth lots. Like, well you have like, you know, 18 varanasi silk sarees, is like, I don't know when you're going to be wearing these

    Um, so, you know, I think that like, uh, culture of, uh, kind of display. Yes. And you know, when we also like, think about like Indians, like Hindus in particular, we pray and we give food to . Like we give them prasad like we give them sweet. Um, so that is a big part of it. So if we're gonna be looking at, you know, sweeteners and sugar and things like that, as.

    "demon" of all of this, we're forgetting the actual practice of [00:24:00] what sugar is in India. So sugar in India is also this aspect of, what's the first thing you do when you go to a person's house in India? You get a cup of tea and a suite no matter what, no matter where you go. So when I was living in the village there, um, I was living in , which is a village, quotes, um, of 1.2 million people, , but it's India.

    Like it's India. So like what's a village? Um, in a population of a billion. So relative, it was. Of village. Yeah. Yes. And it like had like very much like, it was small, very populated because like, Hello India, very populated everywhere. People living just on top of each other kind of thing. Um, but every interview that I did, cuz it was qualitative, so I was looking at interviews, I interviewed like locals and, uh, did like analysis of it.

    We don't have to get into the actual interview process, but every single place I went to, I was offered [00:25:00] tea and sweets no matter what. Like whether they were like a student, whether they were a professor, whether they lived in, you know, like they lived close to the daba that was outside of where I was living no matter what tea and.

    Yep. Everywhere I would go and like, be like, Okay, I'm gonna go like, go to this like vendor and like talk to them about like, Cause they had a co, they had a Pepsi, like, um, facil, like a bottling facility at the, like in Dharwad, which is really random, but it's there. Um, if you ever get Pepsi in India, they're mostly bottled in Thwa.

    Surabhi: Um, Where, what state is that in? It's in Karnatake. Mm, okay. Yeah.

    Anika: So, um, and I'm North Indian, so like, and I look very North Indian. So like I go down there and they're like North Indian and I'm like, Gee, and I speak Hindi, but like, they don't, they speak gun of there. So it's like, [00:26:00] I don't know how to speak the language.

    Yeah. I like, I, but they knew what I was saying so it was easy for me to like bargain and get my way around things, which was good. Um, but anyways, going back to this like Pepsi thing. So we are at this Pepsi factory and. I'm interviewing this guy and he just brings out like literally a tray of Mattai

    Like he's just like here. And I'm like, Why? ?

    Surabhi: Like I I, it's just the culture. Yeah, yeah. And you know,

    Anika: no, no Pepsi offered to me, but like, how interesting

    Surabhi: about the Pepsi factory, but no pep,

    Anika: no Pepsi, I got tea. Um, but my research partner who's white, Oh, do you want some Pepsi? And I'm like, Oh wait, not what I want Pepsi

    Like I don't want the Pepsi. Like I've done having, you're

    Surabhi: like, I've had a cups of cha today. Please give me a Pepsi, please. Like, give me,

    Anika: give me the Pepsi. Um, but no, [00:27:00] he gives me tea. So there's also that, like we called it the intervening variable in all of our interviews. Because even if she was the one doing the interview, cuz we'd always tag team and interview.

    So either she's interviewing or I'm interviewing. If she was interviewing, they were talking to me. Because it was always this intervening variable of, Oh, well

    Surabhi: you're the Indian here, you get me.

    Anika: Yeah. And like my research director, very capable person, like she's amazing. And she was like, Uh, can you talk?

    And I was like, You have to talk to her. Don't talk. I'm just writing. Don't talk to me. But they would talk to like, to me because Is that like, Like the comfort? Yeah. Yeah. And that's like why like I have a lot of Indian clients or like a lot of brown clients, cuz they feel comfortable around me because we look the same

    Surabhi: Well, and it's also, I feel like a byproduct of con colonization. You have less trust for weight. Yeah, exactly. Because of exactly what happened in India and all over the world. So, you know, I, I see that too because my [00:28:00] parents, when we moved here, they were 40 and 45 and they have only Indian friends. Mm-hmm and like their coworkers that were Indian there, they're friends.

    Right. And it's this lack of trust for people who are different because. I mean, it makes sense. It's like we see it in the black community too, right? It's like, yeah, you have to prove your yourself to me by sticking around long enough by earning that trust. So I can see that. I can see that even with my clients too.

    Um, yeah. And you also understand the cultural aspects of the food, like mm-hmm. , you don't have to explain what doll is when you like, you know, or like RA or whatever. It's just like, Yeah. Your clients are probably like, Oh, you're just gonna get it. I don't have to explain.

    Anika: Yeah. Or they say, Oh yeah, I'm making subs today.

    And I'm like, Okay. Like I already, like, I'm like, What kind of subs? Like I, You don't only have to explain like, the process of what's it you like, It's like, like I already know what the base is. Just tell me which vegetable you're gonna put in there. Yeah. You know, like what, like, do I already [00:29:00] know what you're gonna do to it?

    Just like, tell me what you're like gonna put in there. . Like, Cause I don't really like, I already know what's gonna happen. So, and then they're like, Oh, well yeah, we need aca. And I'm like, Okay. Yeah. Like, there's no question about like, what's in Theca. I'm like, No, no, I know. And like, wait, oh, you're South Indian.

    Do you put mustard seeds in there? Like, like, is that what you're putting in there? Cause like less North Indian we eat, put the Cuban. Yeah, we put the Cuban seeds. So it's like I, and again, living in South India, I had that experience and exposure. Like, I can make a wicked doza. So I'm like, I'm ready now, . Um, but it was because I had that exposure, which was, again, I felt like I wasn't culture shocked when I went to India, but when I came back I was like, holy, what's going on here?

    Like, first of all, where are the people? There's no people here, . And then second of all, Everybody eats out all the time. Like in the village. Mean people. Yeah. People weren't eating out in the village. But then, like, my cousins in [00:30:00] Deli, like one of my cousins is a chef, so like she's taking me all these restaurants and stuff and I'm just like, this is amazing.

    But lots of people eat out. But in the village people are like, No, no, no. Um, like we, I was gonna say Garcon, like, it's like they eat at home, at home food. Yeah. Like, yeah, like at home. Like that's their, that's their vibe because they live where they live. Yeah. And you go to the larger city centers and you're like, Oh, like this is why.

    And then those are where you see the more influx of diabetes and hypertension and like, it's, it's just like, so.

    Surabhi: Yeah, I see it too. I see it in all my cousins in the big cities and, they're struggling with their health, especially now they're getting into the menopause. Mm-hmm. and they're like, Oh shit.

    For the past 20 years I've been eating out every day. And like their workday are like 12 hours, you know, like,

    Anika: and they work like they're all work horses. Yeah.

    Surabhi: It's crazy. It's the culture, right? It's like we have to work all day and then on weekends too. And so they just don't [00:31:00] have time to cook or they don't have, they're not home enough.

    Um, and a lot of the processed food is not Indian processed food either. It's like no other cultures, foods that Western,

    Anika: Right? Western, yeah. It's Western foods. Yeah. So, and like even just reframing, it's just more convenient. Mm.

    Yeah. So yeah, cuz like when we look at like, cause again, the shame and blame, so like, just like, hey, no, it's not crap. It's just more convenient. Yeah, it fits their lifestyle. So like, just looking at that perspective, uh, when we go through that, like Indian perspective, right? Like Indians are work horses.

    Like when they're in India, I'm like, How are you still working? And they're like, Yeah, I work like, you know, nine, and then I, I work until 2:00 AM. I'm like, What?

    Surabhi: But that's just reality. . Well, and we know how important sleep is in terms of health too. And I often, And diabetes. And diabetes and mm-hmm. , you know, it's, it's the combination of the convenience foods, the lack of sleep, the [00:32:00] high stress life, but people just blame it on like one thing or their weight.

    Mm-hmm. , right? Yeah. It's like, but like what is it about really?

    Anika: Yeah. Um, exactly. And that again, they, that shame and blame is coming from the diet, culture and um, you know, even in Indian society, this idea of. Well, you have to look a certain way. Like you have to look like Ash. You can't look like Mare cuz like, you know, mare's short and like Asher is tall and like,

    Surabhi: you know, she's got green

    Anika: eyes or whatever.

    Yeah. Got green eyes. She's got the like quote unquote Aryan features, even though she's South Indian. Like that's, you have to look like that. That's how we perceive beauty. Um, and that comes again, like, that's like filtered into from the eighties and nineties and now it's just kind of there. Um, and it sits there and you see, you know, oh well fair skin is more beautiful.

    And that stuff is again, from this western rhetoric of, oh, well the [00:33:00] Westerners, they're more wealthy, they have all these, they power so they're more beautiful. Yeah. And it's crazy because you also see this in, um, like cleaning stations. So like in India there's lots of cleaning stations you go to, like, you mean.

    Surabhi: Oh, I see, I see, I see. You

    Anika: go to and there's like, for your hands, um, and lots of like different villages. They have like these like hand washing stations to like go before you eat. Do you like wash your hands? Cause everything you eat with your hands or like you, after you eat, you go and wash your hands.

    So they have these like little like kind of posters above the hand washing station of the, um, how to wash your hands. And it's not Indian people that are featured there. No. It's white people. White blonde people. So what does that perceive? Like intrinsically, it's like, oh, well white people are clean and dark people are not.

    Yeah,

    Surabhi: they're dirty,

    Anika: right? Yeah. They're dirty or they're poor, or they're not [00:34:00] able to keep themselves clean. And that's a problem, right? Yeah. Because then you see this. Internalized racism that comes in, not just from like Indian to Indian, but Indian to like darker populations, like Black people. Oh yeah.

    You see it. Yeah. And even South Indian to North Indian, like the North Indians, like we're crazy up there. Like we're we're crazy people. So like, cause we're just like, oh no, Like they're down there, they're darker. But then South Indian people are like, Oh no, you're not pure Indian

    Like, it's a whole thing. And it's like, Cause I got told that so many times when I was there, I was like, Oh no, you're North Indian. You wouldn't understand, you're not truly an Indian. And it's like, well no I'm not. I'm a Canadian. They're like, No, no, no, but you're North Indian. And I'm like, like, gimme some space here.

    Like I'm none of these things . I'm like, I'm trying to just be Canadian in India. And that's what the rhetoric I was getting while I was in that South Indian community. Yeah. Um, because, I look very North Indian. Like I [00:35:00] look like a Punjabi girl. So like Yep. It's very clear. Um, not that like, obviously like everybody looks different, but like I have very distinct features.

    Yeah. Um, that, that pushed me in that space. And also like, I dress like I'm a Western person. Yeah. Like I wasn't wearing like

    Surabhi: and stuff. Yeah,

    Anika: yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like 47 degrees out there. I'm not gonna do that. I can't wear that much fabric. going into an interview, I'm like, Nope. Not doing that. Nope. like, obviously I'm not gonna wear shorts cause that's just asking for trouble.

    But like, I got boobs, so like, what am I gonna do?

    Surabhi: Yeah. You're like, I can't hide this stuff. I'm just, I'm trying,

    Anika: I'm trying my best to hide it. Like, I can't walk around a sweater. Sorry, my boobs are out. Like, what am I gonna do? I'm just kind of like in this spot where I didn't look like I belonged there.

    There, Yeah. But everybody thought I belonged. They thought I was my research partner's tour

    Surabhi: guide. Okay. So this happened with my husband and I, They [00:36:00] thought I was his tour guide. Yeah. And I actually went with it for one time just cuz I wanted to see if I could get the Indian discount to get into the museum.

    And like, while I say this, I wanna say this, that was really ridiculous because it's the difference between like a dollar or $2, like really minimal. But I just wanted to see if they still thought of me as Indian. And they did because yeah, when I was traveling around Rajasthan I just said I was Tamilian and that's why I didn't speak Hindi that well, because I speak Hindi but very poorly now.

    Mm-hmm. , I just forgotten so much. And so they were like, Oh, you're, you're from Mumbai. Cuz that's where I, I was born and uh, and then I'm like, Oh, but my Hindi, I forgotten. You know, I, I speak Tamil. Uh, and so they were, they just assumed that I, which is true, but they just assumed that I was taking him around on a tour because they just, Yeah.

    Saw me as Indian. They didn't see him as Indian obviously. Um, And it's interesting because I am South Indian, but because I'm lighter-skinned, and my mom is really light-skinned. People [00:37:00] often wonder like, How the heck is she South Indian? And I'm like, I don't know. We just are. Um, Hi.

    Aishwarya. . Yeah. Right. There's just no green eyes, but like we're just lighter. Especially for South Indians, right? Yeah. My dad, my brother are darker and, when I grew up, I never saw the colorism. Mm-hmm. because I was lighter skinned, but, and I was, I was like eight when I left India. I lived in Bahrain until I was 10, so I don't, I wasn't a teenager going through that, but now as an adult, I can see it.

    Mm-hmm. at the fair and lovely commercials, the like, like you said, and the posters. I noticed that a lot of the billboards were just like white people. And I'm like, they're trying to sell because they know that people will buy because Yeah. Again, white supremacy worldwide. Right. Colonialism. Colonialism is.

    The lie that we've been fed, that white is better. Mm-hmm. , it's still persist in India. So colorism, all of that stuff still exists and that affects probably food and health long term,

    Anika: right? Yes. And you see that, [00:38:00] not in just the chronic illness wise, but like, Oh, well, when people move here, Yes.

    Well, yeah, I'm gonna just have Western food because that's considered healthy because you're, We're in the west, they're healthy people, We're unhealthy people. Oh, and, And then you get the, Oh, like I got this a lot growing up was, well, your food's really greasy. It's not very good for you. It's got a lot of fat in it.

    There's no vegetables in it. I'm like, Have you made a tarka? Like there's literally four vegetables just in the tarka alone. Like, just like in the base of all the foods. There's four vegetables. Yeah. Vegetable heavy foods. Huge. We

    Surabhi: are, It's all vegetable protein and then rice or like roti. Right? Yeah.

    It's like, it's so healthy. I know. And like I always tell people when you eat out, of course it's gonna be more grease and cream, but they're also catering to western audience who likes that heavier, sweeter, you know, taste creamier. Like creamier richer. Like I never eat like that at [00:39:00] home. South Indian food especially, it's like mostly vegan except for the ghee in like sweets and stuff.

    Mm-hmm. . But like, there's a lot of vegetarian foods. We don't really eat eggs. And so it's, it's not heavy fats. It's not heavy grease. Oh. But you're right, there's this myth. It's unfortunate because when I moved to Canada I was 10 and the principal gave my parents the Canada Food Guide.

    Yeah. And we're like that. So fun. Your daughter needs to be eating like this. And because I was so small, I should have been actually starting grade six because I started a school year early in India, so I could have started grade six, but they kept me back in grade five with my age group because I was so small.

    And I'm like, But I'm just small. I'm not gonna just, You're . Oh. I didn't learn anything new in Canada until I was in grade nine. Cuz the school system is so far advanced there and so different. Like you just don't learn anything here. You just, I was cutting and pasting in grade five. Yeah. I was literally collecting leaves and making like, I was shocked, but that's besides the point.

    But I, I definitely noticed. Like there was this heavy pressure to eat a lot of [00:40:00] dairy. Oh, she needs to be drinking three to four cups of milk a day. Like, I don't know about you, but like, we don't, in India, nobody does that. Right? Like, nobody

    Anika: drinks just like milk, but they put milk in two things. Cereal or like, Yeah.

    Yeah. But it's not like, Oh yeah, here have a glass of milk. It's like, Pardon? Like, it's like, Oh, you're sick, so you have milk. That's why you have milk's. Like, Oh, like they have a cold. You put milk and turmeric and

    Surabhi: tumeric and Yeah, and like whatever else. Yeah. All the, I've, I been drinking that daily with plant-based milk because my kids don't eat dairy.

    So it's just, um, yeah, it's, it's this assumption that the western culture and diet is the best way. Mm-hmm. and parents are being told this by school, like teachers and principals. Yeah. I had a client whose, whose um, teacher said that you must bring a vegetable with. , um, meal or snack. I was like, who is snacking on veggies?

    Like as a five year old? Like, you know, like it's okay if they do, but it's also okay if they don't

    Anika: and you know, when we see that now we're [00:41:00] like seeing that infliction of diet culture into our children.

    Right? Yeah. So that inflection comes from like, who is the principal? Like is he a dietician? He a healthcare professional? What's his nutrition training? I always ask that to my clients when they're like, Yeah, my, my teacher or my prof told me X. And I'm like, What's your, what, what class was that? They're like social economics and.

    Lovely. I'm so glad that they're so qualified. And I think that, that maybe you don't have to eat just like one bread, one piece of toast every single day. Like, that's like definitely not healthy . It's not enough food.

    Surabhi: Um, please eat more and

    Anika: please like, please, I beg you eat more. It's so funny, like I think whenever my clients meet me, they think I'm gonna like put them on a restrictive situation and I'm usually like, We should add this.

    What about this? Add this? And they're like, You're just adding more foods into my life. And I'm like, Yes. That's what I want you to do. Yeah. Because that's how you find freedom [00:42:00] and that's how we figure out like, oh, you can actually tolerate this. Especially with like things like IBS and Crohn's.

    Surabhi: Yeah, I wanted ask about that because I know I've worked with people who are like, Oh, I can't eat anything because I have IBS, so I just eat like literally like plain bread and like very minimal.

    Yeah. And I'm like, is that true? Like, no.

    Anika: Yeah, no. I have a few really intense colitis patients and Yeah. When they came to me, they were just having white food. So like bread, potatoes, um, pasta, like plain pasta. They're Indian. Okay. They're coming to me with this and they're like, Yeah, I have plain pasta, bread and aloo.

    And I'm like, Okay, how's that going? It's awful .

    Surabhi: I'm like, it sounds like that that's an immediate, immediate depression for me. When I don't eat. So after I had my first, because I had breastfeeding issues, my naturopath told me to [00:43:00] stop eating gluten, dairy, and eggs.

    I'm already vegetarian. So I'm like, okay, you are literally taking my life. Like when you take gluten away, like you're, everything, everything . And I became real thin. I was so, my mental health was tanking because I wasn't getting any nutrients. I literally was not eating enough and. I started to get more stressed and it was just a cycle.

    Right? So many healthcare professionals their first thing is to restrict, take away all, eliminate take away. Yeah. And I love your approach that you're like, No,

    Anika: let's, let's add it in. So like, with that client that comes to me like, I have aloo and I'm like, Okay, that's it. Okay. Like a potato.

    Um, and then I'm like, Okay, like let's try like something else. And then slowly adding in, adding in, adding in. And now like sheets everything. She's like, Yeah, my, like I ate like a, like channa Masala the other day and I'm like, with colitis, like you had like chickpeas Yeah. Which is a huge trigger for most people.

    And she was [00:44:00] like, Yeah, I had channa masala last night. And I'm like, You go girl. That's awesome.

    Surabhi: Girl. If I ever had to give up channa masala,

    Anika: I ate it last night, I would like, I would not be able to do that. It's like, like I eat primarily plant based and vegetarian. Like I eat fish every once in a while, basically when I go out.

    So it's so difficult for me to like give up something cuz I'm like, this is how I get my nutrition. Yeah. This is how I survive. Yeah. I would not be able to work if I didn't eat things. Yeah. Um, and I think that like when we look at that restrictive eating pattern, we're just sorry for the pun.

    We're feeding diet culture. We're just letting that big monster take over our lives essentially. Yeah. And being the dictator of our life rather than us having that relationship, it's like, oh well someone else is in that relationship with diet culture because like, we don't get to have a relationship with our food.

    Right.

    Surabhi: How do you respond to, I'm just thinking of you. Yeah. And like your [00:45:00] friends. I like maybe you have all your friends are on board, but what about if you have friends, cousins, family that make inappropriate comments? Or not even inappropriate, but like diet culture, comments. Yeah. Cause I have young kids and I am like very protective of what they hear at home or around home.

    But then I know that I don't have control over what they hear outside of home and in their daycare. They're very congratulatory when you finish your meal. Yeah. And my daughter will come home and say, I finished my lunch today. And I never say, Yay, congrats. I'm always like, Oh, you know, looks like your belly, your body needed that.

    Mm-hmm. . But their day care is like Gold Star. You're awesome. You finished everything. And so she has learned that she wants that encouragement and that, you know, like the Gold Star, not actually getting a star, but. Congratulatory experience. So she now like rushes to finish it. And I'm like, Trust your body.

    Take your time, take your time. Trust your body. Yeah. But it's this message that very few [00:46:00] people are on board with to be honest. Mm-hmm. . And it's a constant conversation that we're having with daycare and whatnot. But what do you do if you have, are out for dinner with friends and someone's like, Oh, I can't order dessert cuz you know my weight.

    Yeah. Do you respond? Do you just,

    Anika: Yeah, My usual response to this, I've like really converted a lot of my friends to like, not talk about their weight in front of me cuz I'm just like, you know, like I think that we need to reexamine how we look at our bodies. They're like, Oh, I can't have dessert, because it's, not my cheat day.

    Or like I say like, I'm like, Oh my God, cheat day. I like wanna just be like, Please you're not cheating on yourself.

    Surabhi: You're cheating yourself if you're not eating dessert, that you really wanted cheating

    Anika: on your relationship right now. Like, please like, just eat it. Um, and so my friends don't really comment about it anymore because I've like really just kind of shut it down real quick.

    So like, for example, if they're like, Oh, I can't have that. Like, it's just so fattening, I'll be [00:47:00] like, It's probably delicious though, so like, you're definitely going to miss out. And then I usually like accidentally order that menu item. . I think that was kind of my response to that. Uh, at one point I was just like, I'll just order it and like eat it.

    And then they're like, Ooh, can I have some? And I'm like, Yeah, I think you should. Yeah. and just giving them, again, freedom to try. Now, when it comes to those self-deprecating comments, I really adamant about like, let's just like talk about our body nicely. Mm-hmm. . Um, so let's circle back to my mom who like is like my Guinea pig patient,

    Surabhi: my Guinea pig patient.

    Who best to start with, right? Right.

    Anika: I'm like, you fed me now let me feed your mind . So. I, I really like shifted her perspective on diet culture and I heard it actually, she was talking to my n my, my, uh, maternal grandmother. She was talking to her cuz my nannie's [00:48:00] doctor keeps saying, Oh, well, like, you know, you're, you're too heavy or too this.

    And like, my nannie's, first of all, four foot, 11, maybe even smaller. Like she's tiny, tiny little lady. And like, she's been the same weight for like, for the last like 20 years. Wow. Yeah. That's awesome. The doctors saying Yeah, like, she's like, she's, she does yoga every day. She's 89. Like, just like let her beat

    Yeah. At this point, like she's on four medications. That's it For an 89 year old, the average, like I think at the average after 65 is like 11 medications. Oh, what? Yes. So 11.

    Surabhi: Oh my gosh. Yeah. And she's on four. No wonder. My mom, my mom always says she's so healthy cuz she's not on any meds. Yeah. She. 66. Yeah.

    Yeah. So like I'm, I give her credit now. Yeah. ,

    Anika: right? Like she's on four. So like this little lady's very like she's got her stuff going. Okay. Her doctor's telling her, Oh well, like, you know, you're too heavy. And I'm like, And then my Nani [00:49:00] calls me Anika, I actually would really like you to put me on a diet.

    And I'm like, What are you talking about? And then my mom chirps in and says, Mom, your body is beautiful. And I'm like,

    Surabhi: Oh. Like I start like

    Anika: just like, Yeah mom, you go girl. Like,

    Surabhi: cause my mom, you're like, my work here is done. .

    Anika: Yeah. I literally like, was like, Mom, I'm so proud. I like just completely just put my nannies on aside and was like, Mom, you have like, you are a star student because she used to like agree.

    and be like, Oh yeah, that's a good idea. Like, we'll listen to your doctor. But now my mom's more like, Why your body's beautiful? Like, look at how much you've done with your body. And she's

    Surabhi: talking, Yeah. And she, and like,

    Anika: look at you. You're 89 and you're doing all these things. And I'm like, wow. Like just full heart eyes for my mom.

    Just like, you just like blew [00:50:00] my world right here. Um, just by even like saying those things because she was always self-deprecating. Like even up until, I wanna say like the last like year. And when she came out with that, I was just like, Wow. Like this is a whole other ballgame now. And now like my mom's like talking about her body in a positive way.

    Like, cause Stu was my biggest trigger I think for like understanding diet culture. Cause like whose mom isn't Yeah. Like at the end of the day, like, sorry, mom's like, It's very important for you guys to take care of your children and like watch what you say around them cuz they will learn. Um, but like hearing my mom say that was like, like I was mind blown, like blasted.

    My mind was

    Surabhi: blasted. You know what, and it goes to show though, that any, for anyone listening who's dealing with the same thing with their own mothers, maybe you're working through diet culture [00:51:00] yourself and you're, you're like, Oh, anytime I have family gatherings, my mom or parents or family is making inappropriate comments around me or my children.

    Just supposed to show how long it takes to change though, it's not like an overnight one conversation thing. You may need to have these set, these boundaries, have these conversations ongoing so that the mm-hmm. they get it because my, my, in my mother-in-law's, you know, Oh, I, I've gotta lose weight and she's already like, just average.

    I'm like, you don't need to. Oh, I just, I I'll, you know, if I just lose another five pounds and then I'm like, Your body's perfect the way it is. Yeah. And. Like what is with this obsession of losing weight, like you're not gonna be happier at five pounds less. Like that's, I think the message Yeah. Doesn't change anything

    It does not change anything. Um,

    Anika: and like I think that kind of brings it back to like, oh well their physician is telling them that's right. That they have to lose weight and it's based on this like BMI aspect of things. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. It's like this BMI of O X means that you're healthy.

    Yes. In quotes, like [00:52:00] please take that with a grain of salt. Your BMI does not dictate those things. It literally just looks at your weight and your height. So like, yeah, guess what? My four foot nine 90 at like whatever weight she's at curb BMI's gonna be really high cause she's like eight. She's four, nine.

    Yeah. And like weighs as much as.

    Surabhi: Like, Well, and it doesn't take into consideration muscle mass, bone, like body frame size. No, nothing.

    Anika: Not nothing. And like, or age. Right, Right. And like, I think like, it doesn't take into consideration age. And now, like when we see that, um, like even just working in long term care, like my residents that are in my long-term care home that are in very frail bodies, like they're very thin, um, and like they're losing weight rapidly.

    Guess what? They tend to die really quickly. Like, sorry for talking so morbidly, but like they, they die very quickly. [00:53:00] Whereas my residents that, you know, are like a little bit heavier, they're like, you know, just doing them. If they're in the exact same condition, they have the exact same, uh, you know, um, comorbidities, the resident that is heavier will live longer.

    Surabhi: Do better. Yeah.

    Anika: They will live longer, like hands down. Yeah. And it's because they have a little extra something, something on them, regardless of their bmi. They got something to fight.

    Surabhi: Whatever's gonna happen to 'em. Yeah. Especially if you like have a stomach bug and you're not eating mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm , you eat extra reserves.

    Right. And I think people forget that like fat and extra stores are not a bad thing. It's actually survival. Right. Like our bodies are surviving. And I remember when we had the, uh, IG live, you had talked about BMI and what is it body that's body mass index for those of you to know. But I think most people do.

    What is it based on and is [00:54:00] there validity to it or is it, is there any good in it?

    Anika: So the BMI is. It comes from, I think he's a astrologer or a statistician. It was like this formula that was built, um, in the 18th, 18 hundreds. Yeah. And this guy just comes up with this formula because he's actually trying to figure out the, like, pull of the earth circle on the star.

    It was like a whole astrology, statistician sort of thing. Um, but then that formula kind of stuck. And American insurance, sorry, American insurance companies actually picked that up in the

    Surabhi: like convenient 1950. Yeah. They were like, Oh,

    Anika: great, we'll use it. Yeah. The night, 19 late, late 1940s, uh, fifties. And like Ansel Keys, who's like, Like researcher in nutrition and like honestly he's like, [00:55:00] I would say he is like one of those founders of diet culture.

    Um, cuz he ca comes up with us, Oh yes, we can use this formula for all these things. And he was working with the insurance companies to see the health of people. Wow. Um, and like obviously like if you've ever read like the Minnesota starvation experiments and things like that, like he uses the BMI as this marker.

    Now the BMI was used and developed like for white 35 year old men. I don't fit there. You don't fit there. Like my partner doesn't fit there. My mom doesn't fit there. My nanny doesn't fit there, my dad doesn't fit there. My sister, my bro, all these people don't fit in that category. Why are we using that?

    Yeah. Where is the validity in something that's like research that's only based on one population. Yeah. So like, even if we wanna talk about my research. . I looked at Indian populations, I looked at indigenous populations here in Canada. I'm looking at all of [00:56:00] these populations and seeing what the difference is or if they're similarities.

    So we need a bigger sample size to actually see the validity of this. If we're only using, you know, a a, it's like over a hundred year old research , like let's update that.

    Surabhi: Yeah. And our lifestyles have changed so much since then. It's a, Yeah. Like we eat very differently. We eat very differently.

    Anika: Yeah. Like this is, he's talking about meat, potatoes, kind of society.

    Yeah. Um, hello? Like, are Indians meeting potatoes societies? No. So like, why is that used? When we assess like, different cultured people? It shouldn't be used. Yeah. It shouldn't be used when we assess all women. But it's

    Surabhi: used, It's

    Anika: used all the time. So that like validity. Question is like, I don't think it's valid at all.

    Yeah. Like it has no validity. And again, it doesn't consider all of the other factors. Like, it doesn't consider, [00:57:00] Okay, well, like people that are pregnant also get their BMI check , like, hello. They're growing another human inside them . Um, like

    Surabhi: let's just, let's just stop. I know. I'm like, let's just stop weighing pregnant women, first of all.

    Cause it's been shown time and time again that it has nothing to do with your size of your baby. Your, like, nothing. It has nothing

    Anika: to do with it. So like, that's out the window. Okay. So like pregnant people are out. What about the. Okay. Well, none of the, none of the people that were tested during the statistician's research were women

    Surabhi: and like questionable too, what the research methods were back then.

    You know, it's like, Right,

    Anika: Like what is he weighing them on? Like a Yeah. A teeter scale or something. Yeah. Like, it's like, what were you weighing

    Surabhi: them on? Like how do you know? I know they actually, And the fact that doctors, hospitals, healthcare professionals mm-hmm. fitness pros are still using this is, Yeah.

    It goes to show how long it takes for bad information to then like, [00:58:00] bleed out of the culture, right? Yeah. And we have to do our parts as professionals. Yeah. But as a, as a regular person who may be seeking help if your doctor, these are red flags for me. If your doctor is heavily weighing, again, pun intended, if heavily weighing just your weight for everything, everything is excused, or the excuse for everything is your weight.

    I'm sorry, but you might need to go find a new doctor who can actually help you. Stay healthy and not just give you state random. I'm like, you're just observing that this person has fat that's not telling you anything. Yeah, right. It's, it's like saying, Oh, it's your height. That's the problem. Like

    Anika: what?

    Thanks. Yeah. Um, and you know, like for myself, we're gonna again circle back to the boobs. Guess what I've got? Oh, true. Right. So now I'm dealing with this like, well you're, if I like go and actually get like a, a DXA scan, which I have before, just cause I was curious and I also was a part of research, [00:59:00] whatever.

    Anyways, it was cool cause I was able to actually see my, my fat Like content. Yeah. Content. I saw my bone density. It was like really cool and like actually Oh cool. Very, Yeah. Like, it's like it's a really cool, um, scan that you can get done. Um, it like is an x-ray. The idea of actually looking at what you have on you, um, without actually looking at, like, cuz there's the other ones like the aim body and stuff like that, that look at electromagnetic current through fat, through fat and uh, muscle.

    But the dxa actually is like an x-ray that goes through and looks at it. So it's really, really cool. Anyways, guess what? My fat content's gonna be so much higher than everybody else cause I got big boobs, , so I'm like

    Surabhi: sitting there one my big boobs and I'm, That's right there. Yeah. like, thank

    Anika: you. Like, you know, there there's, there's all the fat right there.

    Like, thank you. That's where it is, like yeah. Um, because. There. So like, that's not even considered.

    Surabhi: That's so true. When we're working, they're not studying female [01:00:00] bodies, to be honest. They just No. You know. No, it's, And I, I really think that when we look at our own body image, and if there's so many people postpartum, right?

    Mm-hmm. , I wanna get back to exercise. I'm like, it's not about the exercise. You wanna get back to looking how you did before because you think that will solve all of your problems. It's not gonna solve your sink deprivation. It's not gonna, it's not gonna, um, make you feel better about being a mom, new mom, trying to figure everything out.

    It's not gonna make your baby stop crying at night. Mm-hmm. going back to your old body. For people, it's freedom, right? It's like, ah, I feel pretty, or I feel attractive. Yeah. But the reality is it's not, it's a deeper conversation. Mm-hmm. , it's about so much more than just. Their body size. Yeah. Right. It's their internalized messaging about their worth related to their body size and mm-hmm.

    um, size giving people apparently happiness, which is not true. I'm like, I, I tell people, I'm like, I used to be a hundred pounds, size, zero size two my entire [01:01:00] life. I'm, I'm, now, I'm not gonna name my size and stuff, but like, I'm much heavier now. I am much happier. Mm-hmm. , like it's, it has, I, getting back to that size will not bring me more happiness.

    Yeah. If it happens and it happens, but it's not

    Anika: gonna, When we look at like, the idea of this idealistic body for a woman that is in the eyes of a man Yeah. And a white man, and I think that's, And a white man, right? Like, um, we look at, you know, what the standard of beauty is and all of these beauty companies, all of these lingerie companies that like have women's bodies all over it.

    Are owned and operated by men. So when, just like gross , it's disgusting. Disgusting. Um, but we look at that and that becomes the standard of beauty. That's what we consider Beautiful. Yeah. In the eyes of a man. [01:02:00] Yeah. So that's just like a, a deep conversation of diet culture is like, well, we're living in misogyny ultimately.

    Mm-hmm. , right? It's like, well, all these standards of beauty for women are for men. Which is like, it's not for us, it's for them.

    Surabhi: And it's just reminding ourselves, we don't exist for men, we exist for ourselves. Right, Exactly. And men don't get these same judgment if they, you see all the men with, you know, they've got their bellies sticking out.

    Nobody's asking them, Are you pregnant? Oh, did you, you seem to have put on weight. There's no comments in body shaming. And maybe there is, but maybe in a few families. But by and large it's happening to women. Yeah. And we, we don't even see ourselves represented on TV and media as women of color. We rarely see ourselves represented.

    And then you add to that, when we are represented it's usually thin, light skin, brown women. Right. Yeah. Or aesthetically pleasing for the gays of a white man. Right. Yeah. So it's, it kind of comes back to that.

    Anika: [01:03:00] Yeah. And like I do wanna touch on, like, men do have like disordered eating patterns and eating disorders in their own regard.

    They're just not diagnosed. Right. Like, Yeah. How do you see the men like, well, with the gym bros. Right. They're counting calories. They're counting their macros. They're counting everything out. They're always looking at the numbers because they're trying to compartmentalize food rather than having a relationship with food that's free.

    Yeah. So there is disordered eating patterns there. Right. And like, that's not sustainable. That's not healthy. Like seeing food is, Oh, well, like I gotta get my macros in. It's like,

    Surabhi: Pardon? I don't even know what that means. .

    Anika: So like, it's like food. You wanna get food, you wanna under, you wanna have food. Right.

    Um, and they're like, No, my macros. And I'm like, Food is not like,

    Surabhi: you're just, we can't just divide food up like

    Anika: that. Yeah. Yeah. So like that's a disordered eating pattern. Yeah. Right there. So men have [01:04:00] it too. And I think that like, men also have this aspect of, Okay, well I have to look like a superhuman, Like a buff

    Surabhi: dude.

    Anika: Yeah. Like a, a superhero in order to be attractive. Yeah. . Right. And I think that that is very harmful too. And like when we're raising our children, especially young boys, like they see that as like, Oh, well I have to be big and strong in order to be like successful.

    Surabhi: You know what? I see it a lot in mom groups.

    Like, Oh, my son is so small. I'm just, it's, it's this obsession when their son is too small and their daughter's too big. Yeah, right. It's like, Exactly. And I see it. People will be, uh, any advice on how to Yeah. You know, increase his weight. And I'm like, But he's healthy. You've just said he's healthy.

    Doctor's not worried, yada yada. But he's just fifth percentile. And I'm like, Someone's gotta be in the fifth percentile. Doesn't mean he's like, Why

    Anika: can't they just be there and like, be okay with it? So I think that like when we, like, if women get this like, it's so. [01:05:00] For us. But there's nuances for men too that I think that really's important need to, to be like recognized.

    And they also need to be acknowledged, right? Like it's like all of these things are pointed at us. Is that cuz a lot, Most of the time we don't get studied. Right? Like all of the like recommendations. All of the like dietary reference, uh, intake numbers, like everything, Vitamin Minerals, they're all based for men.

    All of your blood work, the ranges, they're all based for men. Yeah. So now like, Taking that out. Okay. Like, yes, women have a lot of problems. We don't get to have a lot of things in the medical field because nothing's studied for us, but we can't not recognize the fact that men also are very influenced by diet culture.

    Surabhi: Um, and also, And misogyny affects them too.

    Anika: Yes. Yay. So, because diet, culture and misogyny, they kind of go hand in hand, right? So they they live in the same [01:06:00] box together. Yeah. They're in the same box of things that if they're on your desk, you should probably start leaving with them out. Like just get them out of a, they're in the throwaway, the throwaway pile of that.

    And

    Surabhi: it impacts relationships, especially when, whatever your, you know, the gender of your partner is. If you are trying to separate yourself, but then they're counting their calories and macros and obsessing about eating 300 grams of protein a day, it's gonna impact you too, right? Like it's, it's gonna impact you too.

    So I think that, Becomes more challenging in, um, partnerships or relationships where one of you is on board and one of you isn't. So where can people find you and work with you?

    Anika: Uh, so they can find me on our website, which is nourishing balance.ca. I'll share that. They can also, uh, find me on social media.

    It's at nourishing balance dot pesky veggies. And, um, if they wanna work with me, there's a bunch of links on there. There's also a bunch of links on the website in order to work with me. [01:07:00] Um, and I have a pretty open schedule most of the time, sometimes, Um, and you just have to make sure that you catch me at a good time.

    Then I can book you in and you can do like free discovery calls. You can get to know me a little bit better, or you just listen to the podcast. And

    Surabhi: I was gonna say, if they've listened to your podcast, they're probably already like, I love her. How can I work with her? I, I actually do recommend. Like this is, we're living in the future.

    Like people, we have people who are excellent in this field who understand you, your culture. Obviously you can work with people who are not just brown. You can work with everybody. But yes, what a lot of people don't understand is that if you're white, you can go to almost anyone. They'll understand your food.

    But if you're brown, you can't just go to anyone. Yeah. You have to do a lot of explaining. So it is a huge, um, I think it's a huge asset that you understand and. I think that's, that's so important. I'm so glad that you offer your services to people who need it. I have a few questions for you about yourself.

    Can you tell me about a book or a [01:08:00] podcast that has been life changing for you? What do you listen to?

    Anika: Uh, so I, yeah, I, yes I do. Um, I actually listened to audio books. That's like my, Oh, nice. My vibe. So it's kind of like a podcast in a book at the same time. Um, I think like during my internship, Anti Diet by Christie Harrison was one of my like most eye opening.

    Books that I've ever experienced. I was just like, oh my gosh. Like you just slapped everything I ever knew in the face and gave me an understanding of why I'm doing what I'm doing. Yeah. Um, it was a huge eye opener, so if you can listen to it. Um, I think I got mine on Audible. Uh, but like the book is also very good, Like, obviously cuz the audio book is the same thing as the book, but like if you could read it, go for it.

    Does she read it? The audio book? She reads it.

    Surabhi: She reads it. I feel like the books that where the author reads it, it's like I wanna listen to them read [01:09:00] their book. Yeah. Yeah.

    Anika: Cuz they have like a lot more like, you know, there's a passion that you feel.

    Surabhi: Yeah, yeah. So it's some random like automated voice reading.

    Anika: Yeah, so I definitely recommend, uh, her book Anti Diet by Christy Harrison. Again, she's a dietician. She's, um, also an mph, so she's got like a lot of knowledge on public health as well as dietetics. She also has a podcast, but I honestly, I love the book so much. That was my, like, again, life changing book.

    Very cool slash podcast at the same time. . Awesome.

    Surabhi: Um, where, what do you do for yourself every day in terms of like three little things that you do for self care or just to care for

    Anika: yourself? Um, so I am like really big on breakfast, like to the point where it's like I will like make myself late. So I like have to have breakfast every morning, like no matter what and my favorite breakfast.

    Like cereal . But I like [01:10:00] add a bunch of things in there. I'm like, Oh, I gotta get like extra protein so I'll, Cause cereal doesn't have a lot of proteins. I'm like, okay, I'll add Greek yogurt into there. I'll put berries. So I got fiber and like add some head parts and just like make this like whole thing.

    But then I'll put milk in it. Cause I'm like, well I want it to be cereal. I don't want it to be a parfait. Cause like parfaits are not the same. Yeah. Um, and I'm huge on that. So that's like my number one thing that I do for myself every single day, no matter what. Um, like even when I'm traveling, I will like bring cereal with me if I have to.

    Surabhi: like I'm open your suitcase and it's just corn. There's some,

    Anika: Yeah. I'm like, there's cereal. What's favorite cereal? I like any granola, honestly. I like love granola. Granola too. Like all of it, like any type, like it's honestly kind of embarrassing. Like I'm just like, yeah, I'm a big cereal person. Like I won't eat eggs, I won't eat anything else for breakfast.

    It's like cereal. Yes. That's what I eat.

    Surabhi: That is so convenient and, and you're spicing it up with [01:11:00] other things. It's, it's, yeah. It's awesome. What else? What else

    Anika: do you like to do? Um, oh, what else do I do? Uh, I do like, I cuddle my dog a lot. Mainly cause it's like something that I like does give me a lot of joy.

    Yeah. And I think that's something that, like even during the pandemic, cause I got him right before it was like, he was my number one and just like making sure that I like give. Love and attention. So I think like giving him that is really important to me. And then something else that I think I do every single day is like, just like self care stuff.

    Like making sure that I wash my face and like brush my teeth and it makes me really happy. Like just like flossing and doing that. It's just, it's the little things, right? Cause you're like, it's like one of my like teeth things. Like, I'm like I need to make sure my teeth are good cause you only get one set.

    So like, I'm like pretty intense about it. So I like floss every day and it just like makes me really happy. same,

    Surabhi: I never used to. And then I started getting so many cavities and I was like, all right, now I [01:12:00] do not miss a day. Even if I'm exhausted, I wake up and I floss it's and brush my teeth. But like, yeah, Yeah, some people just don't ever floss and never get cavities.

    And I'm like, I'm not one of you.

    Anika: I know. I know. And it's like, definitely just something that I like to do, but like, keeps me happy. Keeps you

    Surabhi: happy. Yeah. Um, love it. And I also love that you start your day with breakfast every day. Cuz so many people I used to skip breakfast for my, like entire life, basically.

    Crazy until more recently where I'm like, Hmm, why do I do this? What's more important than like, sitting and just eating, you know? Mm-hmm. .

    Anika: Um, yeah. And like, again, cereal, like forces you to like sit down and eat. Yeah.

    Surabhi: Like a, Yeah. I grab a sandwich and a wrap or whatever and go like,

    Anika: it's no, I'm like, I like sit down and I like eat.

    It's like a, just like a huge part of my morning routine. Like, I've been doing it for years. Like, it's just, just who I am. I don't know, it's like a big part of me. Everybody that knows me is like, Oh, Anna's having [01:13:00] breakfast . I'm just like, yeah. I'm like really into breakfast .

    Surabhi: Okay. So what are you super passionate about right now?

    Anika: Uh, this was my hardest question. I was like, I'm passionate about so many things. Um, right now I'm working on like a few corporate workshops for different organizations and think that it's been really cool just cause I can do those workshops in person. So I'm like back to presenting and doing that in person, and I think like, I'm just like really digging that.

    Like, I love the whole online pandemic presentation, but like, doing it in person is so different. Like, you get a vibe from the people that watching

    Surabhi: you. Yeah. Especially with, with presentations, right? Mm-hmm. , like, it's a little different when you're like one on one, but when you're presenting to a room and you can see their expressions and they're not hiding behind a closed screen, you're like, Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Anika: And I like, I'm, I [01:14:00] really like right now, it's like something that I'm just super, super enjoying. Awesome. Um, just having that like. Let's do this. And like seeing again, just like feeding off the audience. Like I, I like kind of forgot how much I love, love doing it. That that charisma that I have there is like, wow.

    Like I, I completely forgot I had this and coming back to it, it's something that just is making me so excited to,

    Surabhi: honestly, that's what I love about podcasting too, because it's like some people are so much better when you just hear them speak. Mm-hmm. . And I feel like it's a way to deliver a message that you can't get from a 15 second real or reading a post on Instagram, reading an email, and you can, I can hear your passion in your voice when you're talking about these things and, and I think that, Incredible.

    Um, thank you. If you could change one thing about one thing in this world, what would you change?

    Anika: Oh, I think we already know the answer to this question. , I would [01:15:00] get rid of diet culture. I think that's like my biggest thing is like, I wanna change diet culture. I don't want it to be there anymore. I want people to like, feel free and like, have things that they enjoy and like not feel guilt about it.

    I think that that's something that it could affect so many facets of our life. Whether it's access to food, whether it's the food availability and affordability, all these things along with how you feel about your body. There's so many things that I think we covered here

    under the, the guise of diet,

    Surabhi: diet, culture. And I often talk about bounce back culture, which is essentially diet culture of postpartum and it. It truly, it's all encompassing. We talk about, you know, supremacy culture, we talk about misogyny, we talk about self worth and control from, you know, media.

    Right? There's so many aspects of it. And I want people to feel free in their bodies and then free their relationship with food. Definitely, that is so, so huge. And Anika, what would you feel, [01:16:00] what do you feel is your biggest

    Anika: strength? I think my ability to connect with people is one of my biggest strengths.

    Um, I'm like, let's toot my own horn. I'm very relatable when I talk to my patients. I feel like I treat it more like, let's just have a conversation. Yes. And I think that's my biggest strength is just like removing a lot of that like kind of white coat. Hierarchy. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's come back to like, we're on the same level here.

    Like, let's talk about this. Cause it makes it so much more free. Cause again, food's really personal. It's that relationship, like, it's a relationship that you have with yourself. It's a relationship that you have with other people. Like it's a relationship that you have with your body, the food around you.

    Again, like all these things, they all played a role. And coming into that space of let's just like come, like, let's just meet at the same point. Yeah. Whether I'm, I'm over here and you're over there. Let's [01:17:00] just like meet at the same point at this time and then we'll talk about it. Go, go through it together.

    Yeah. Yeah. And like I always tell my patients like, I'm here to guide you. I'm not here to tell you. Yeah. Um, so like, I'm going to give you tools so then you can succeed. It's not, it has nothing to do with me. I'm just, I'm just a messenger. Like, don't, like treat me like, I like your guilt of me. There's no like judgment in my treatment of you.

    I just want you to know that like I'm just here to guide. like you dealing with your ibs. Let me guide you on how you can deal with it. So then eventually you don't have to see me anymore. Yep. Like

    Surabhi: I'm like thinking, okay, I have so many clients now that need to talk to you. gonna send my brother to you because seriously these things matter.

    And one thing that I think it's important to note is a lot of cultural foods, not just Indian, but like different Caribbean foods. Mm-hmm. , they're very healthified in terms of like, Yes. You know, you're basically changing, Oh, can I eat rice, [01:18:00] have cauliflower rice. Oh, can I eat this? Have that. And you're like, you're literally changing the entire meal.

    And I think it's important to note that you don't make people do that is you're honoring people's lifestyles and cultures. Yes. And foods as is and just adding to it. Mm-hmm. rather than trying to completely make it a different thing.

    Anika: Yeah. I think like the rice thing is the biggest one. Cause so many cultures, aside from Western cultures eat rice.

    Yep. And I think that like, It's like a perfect vehicle for so many things. Like, oh, throw something, like, throw those like green lats in there. Okay. Throw some chickpeas in there. Okay. Throw some frozen vegetables in there. And they're like, Oh, I can eat rice. Then I'm like, You could have as much rice as you want,

    It just depends on what you're doing with it. Yeah. And like you can put all the spices you want there. Oh, I can put oil in there. And I'm like, Yeah, you, How are you gonna

    Surabhi: cook that rice? You need, You need something. Yeah. ,

    Anika: you need something to cook it. So like, you know, that's something that like, I, [01:19:00] again, like I work with someone and their cultural needs, uh, whether they're Indian like Arab, Pakistani, like, which is basically the same as Indian.

    Cuz we're all just British India. Yeah. It's, I just like, I'm like, okay, the Brits like separated us. The Brits

    Surabhi: separated us randomly by religion and whatever. And you're like, man, we're the same. Like, we're the same. We were part of the same place. Yeah.

    Anika: Yeah, well like North Indians and Pakistani people, like we all have the same food, so it's like we're the same people.

    It's very similar. Yeah. It's just divided by a line. Anyways, so like, you know, and then I have lots of like clients from Egypt and different parts of Africa and the Caribbean. You know, I have a lot of exposure to food cuz I was able to travel a lot, um, which is very, very lucky and very privileged of me.

    But I was able to do that and experience food and I'm a foodie, so I like to like explore and I

    Surabhi: still need to try. That restaurant that you shared, um, I think it's called Marked right? Yeah. Oh, so good. [01:20:00] So good. It's on my list. I'm like, I watch your food. And I'm like, Whatever vegan, vegetarian stuff you share.

    I'm like, Yep, I'm gonna gonna check that out. well, Anika, thank you so much for spending your time with me today and for sharing all of your expertise, your experience. you totally are relatable and I loved hearing you talk. You're such a natural. And,for anyone who found this conversation beneficial, share it with a friend that needs to hear it.

Surabhi Veitch https://www.thepassionatephysio.ca
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