41. Nonbinary parenting, fertility, and advocacy with Sophia Dhrolia

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Surabhi Veitch interviews Sophia Dhrolia, where they discuss their journey into parenting. From meeting their wife (on Plenty of Fish!) to their Bollywood romance, we talk about how they had kids as a queer couple. You’ll laugh, you’ll cry and you’ll learn so much from this incredible human. This is an absolute must-listen and one of my all-time favourite interviews.

Here’s what else you’ll find:

• Why their kids have an unintentional age gap

• Why you should use Google to arm yourself with information (instead of asking queer folks to do the work)

• Finding a sperm donor (that isn't white and blond)

• Their wife’s IUI and feeling like they didn’t belong in the process

• How queer couples get treated different at fertility clinics

• Meeting your baby: love at first sight

• Devastated about their own infertility

• In vitro fertilization (IVF), high costs, a heterosexist system and fertility clinics

• Why partners may not understand fertility challenges in the same way

• Coming out to their family

• Their incredible pregnancy journey

• Parenting a young child while dealing with infertility and depression

• Pregnancy as a non-binary person, dealing with body changes and clothing

• Postpartum preeclampsia and importance of advocating for oneself

• Why diversity and representation in healthcare matters

• Intersectionality and bias in healthcare

• Importance of advocating for yourself in healthcare

• Raising kids and the importance of inclusive language

• What allyship means

• Repairing relationships and apologizing to kids

Sophia Dhrolia

Sophia Dhrolia (she/they) is a non-binary parent to two who struggled with infertility for years and advocates, where possible, for a more inclusive fertility process, inclusive language and experiences for kids growing up with different families. Professionally, they are a diversity, equity, and inclusion specialist who focuses on helping organizations create cultures of belonging to ensure people are seen, heard, valued, and given equitable opportunities to thrive.

• Follow Sophia on Instagram @sd.apper

Connect with Surabhi:

• Find Surabhi on Instagram or Facebook @thepassionatephysio

• Website: https://www.thepassionatephysio.ca

• Podcast Transcript

  [00:00:00] Intro

  musical intro

  [00:01:00]

  Surabhi: Hello friends, and welcome back to another episode of Mom Strength.

  I'm Surabhi Veitch. I'm your host and I'm so excited to have today's guest on. So I'm at, I'm just going through puberty right now, but, um, , I met Sophia, I [00:02:00] think it was in September, August, couple months ago. It's October now at a Sean Paul concert. My friend, Reena was going with her friends and I was like, Dude, like I love Sean Paul.

  Like, this is awesome. I've never seen Sean Paul. So I joined them and we met up for a couple drinks and then we went out dancing and I was like, I love this person. But then a few weeks later, a few months later, time is not a time. It's not clear to me right now, but I saw Sophia share this, I saw Reena and Sophia share this thing called, a talk for Steps of Pride 2022 by the Get Real Movement.

  And it was a talk about Sophia and her parenting journey about her parenting experience as a queer, non-binary person. And I was like, people, we all, I learned so much from it and we all need to hear this because we all need to learn about this. Um, so we can not only do better for ourselves, but also for our kids and everyone in this world around us.

  So welcome [00:03:00] Sophia. I'm so happy to have you on here.

  Sophia: Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm, I'm so happy to be here. And I'm, I, you know, thank you for listening to that keynote. I, I really appreciate it and that you invited me here to just talk more. I, I love it. Any opportunity to talk about myself? I'll, I'll take it.

  Surabhi: We're, we're the same. This conversation will be like four hours long. uh, okay. So I'm gonna actually do a, an, an official intro. Okay. So people kind of have a background of who you are. So, Sophia , I didn't ask you this. How do you say your last name?

  Sophia: Dhrolia.

  Surabhi: Dhrolia. Okay.

  [00:03:33] Who is Sophia & their work in DEI

  Surabhi: Sophia Dhrolia is a non-binary parent to two who struggled with infertility for years and advocates, where possible, for more inclusive fertility process and inclusive language and experiences for kids growing up with different families

  Professionally, they are diversity, equity, and inclusion specialists who focuses on helping organizations create cultures of belonging to ensure people are seen, heard, valued, and given equitable opportunities to try to thrive. [00:04:00] I love this.

  Sophia: It's mouthful. It's mouthful.

  Surabhi: I, but I love this. Like I, I feel like the world needs more you. One of the things that actually talking about belonging, it's one of those things that we all innately search for. We all want to belong and we like, we think we're looking for happiness. We think we're looking for love and we need love, but it's truly what we want us to feel like we belong. And I love that you are working with organizations to help create this culture.

  We need that. So

  Sophia: it's, it, it's a lot of hard work though, like in terms of there's so much resistance. And it's funny, you know, you say that because it is an innate feeling of belonging, but the problem is there's a cool kids club

  Surabhi: mm-hmm. ,

  Sophia: and then there's everyone else and it's like, But we already belong.

  Surabhi: Yes.

  Sophia: And we already feel good versus the rest of us who are like, But hold on, we wanna be at the cool kids table too. Mm-hmm. , um, you know, and it's just about making room at that table, [00:05:00] making the table bigger, just breaking that table and creating a bigger one. Right.

  Surabhi: And that's, I think the issue is when you're already, when you don't see things as a problem, it's not because they're not a problem, it's just because they may not affect you or impact you in the same way.

  And I think we need to, you know, get our head of heads out of our asses long enough so we can learn to see things from other people's point of view. And I always say like, you don't have to understand everything about someone, but you can still accept and listen and learn.

  Sophia: It's empathy, right?

  Surabhi: It's empathy!

  Sophia: It's all about empathy and it's, you would think it would be just more common practice to, to have empathy, but it's really not. Cuz there's a just so much selfishness. And I think the pandemic highlighted a lot of that too, right? It was like you were either empathetic or you're a selfish asshole. It's like there was no in between. It was just,

  Surabhi: it's so true,

  Yeah. And I think the, the hard part is too, that so many people weren't parented with compassion. Mm-hmm. . And they, and then there's one of two things that can happen. You can grow up and be like, I didn't like that I'm [00:06:00] changing. Yeah. Or you can be like, Oh, that's just normal. I'm just gonna continue this path.

  And I feel like that's what I see a lot too, is I'm like, you know, I do have empathy for certain people. Cause I'm like, you had it hard, but that doesn't give you permission to then. Put that same stress and trauma on everybody else around you because you haven't dealt with your own stuff. Right,

  Sophia: Exactly.

  Surabhi: And we see that in workplaces. You probably see it all the time as like, all the time, dude. Like this is, this is more than just like a presentation. This is more about like life's work and like changing perspectives is, is hard work. So kudos to you for doing it. Thank you for doing it. And I wanna hear about, So let's start with who you are and kind of how you got into, I wanna know about how you met your wife actually.

  Sophia: Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. So, uh, my wife and I, we've uh, officially been married for 10 years and,

  Surabhi: Congrats!

  Sophia: Thank you. So we , we actually, Okay, [00:07:00] so this is a great story. Um, I'll keep it quick, but, um, so , I actually live so I'm totally, as you know, queer as can be, as gay can be, but. My entire life and everyone around me as straight as can be.

  [00:07:15] How Sophia met their wife

  Sophia: Mm. So I've always lived a very straight life, but very openly who I am. And so I was on at the time, and I don't even know if this website exists, There's plenty of fish I've heard. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. And so this was like, I don't know, 12 years ago I was on the site and I had put, I created a profile to find lesbian friends.

  I didn't, I, you know, I was in a relationship and, um, I, I was just looking for friends. And so my wife, Tamara, uh, now my wife , she, uh, reached out to me and she's like, Hey, um, I think we'd, we'd, you know, really would get along, you know, it seems like we have a lot of common interests and I was in a relationship at the time, so I wrote back and I was like, Yeah, you know, [00:08:00] seems great, but I'm in a relationship right now.

  And I would, I'm just looking for friends. Dead silence. I didn't hear from her. At all. She was like, Who the hell goes on here looking for friends? I,

  Surabhi: I was gonna say, I feel like what I remember from people who were on Plenty of Fish was very much not a friend zone thing, . So you were like, You know what? I'm starting this up. So what happened after that?

  Sophia: I, well, I, I did meet some people that Oh, you becoming friends, but, you know, we tried golfing with someone, but yeah. Um, anyway, so six months went by. It was a toxic relationship. Um, you know, I got out of it, bought a house, got my life together, and then I went back on Plenty of Fish.

  I was like, All right, I'm ready to date. And I was just planning to date, I was planning to date lots of women. I had this house in the beaches. I was excited. Gonna, you know, just, just have fun. Live it up. Yeah. And totally. And then I go on, I see her little photo there. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna try messaging her.

  She's hot. Um, you know, I'm gonna try. So I messaged and I said, Hey, you know, I've [00:09:00] sorted my life out. Let's get together. She wrote back surprisingly six months later, cuz I said, I don't know what your status is. Wrote back and she said, Yeah, let's meet. It was May long weekend. So we met on May 23rd on Church Street in Toronto.

  And I looked at her and I literally said to myself, This is a person I'm going to marry. And, um, We had an amazing conversation. We had some drinks. Um, then I walked her to her car and she said, I'm going to, it was inside Out Festival, which is, um, you know, like Tiff, but you know, it's the LGBTQ2S+ community and their films.

  And so she's like, I'm going tonight. If you, you know, if we can find tickets, do you wanna join us? And it was her and her two friends. And I was like, Yeah, sure. And she really wanted her friends to just get, uh, like to basically approve of me. Right. . Yeah. And, and so I showed up, had a great time with them.

  [00:09:55] Their Bollywood romance

  Sophia: And then a month later she moved in. Uh, three months later I [00:10:00] proposed while we were on a trip, uh, in Newfoundland. And then a year to the date on the day we met, we got married. .

  Surabhi: That is incredible. , I feel. That's like, I'm, I'm like, it's like a Bollywood romance story right now.

  Sophia: Right? And, and that's, I mean, I grew up watching Bollywood, so I think I was just trying to find my, my Bollywood hero.

  Surabhi: And you know what, I love that. I actually, my husband and I met on May 23rd too. Oh. Which is the May long weekend. And my daughter was born on May long weekend too. She's on the 21st. But, um, yeah, we met for the first time at a rock climbing, like outdoor rock climbing, camping weekend. And I was actually casually seeing someone at the time, , and I saw him.

  I'm like, I really like this guy. You know what it was for me? It's so funny how it's subtle things. Like you were like, I love that we could have a conversation. And it just felt, it sounded like it felt very natural for you. It was the same for me. It just felt easy. Right? Yeah. And we're so used to dating, being hard

  Sophia: Yeah. But it was, [00:11:00] you know what it was for me, it was her smile. And her smile still kills me every single time. Like it's, Yeah. She has the best smile. Um, and I, I always say I'm a lucky, lucky human being. Um, you know, like the universe has been good to me.

  Surabhi: I love that. And I'm sure she says the same about you.

  Sophia: Well, you know, questionable .

  Surabhi: Okay. So you have been married for 10 years? Mm-hmm. . And you have two kids? We do, yes. How old are your kids?

  [00:11:30] The unintentional age gap between their kids

  Sophia: Yeah, so our oldest is, he'll be eight in January and youngest, uh, just turned three in September. Nice. Yeah. Not an intentional age gap. I can, Well, we can talk through that, but yeah.

  Uh, we were really hoping that they would be very close in age. Yeah. Um, af so my wife gave birth to her first and I was hoping to go through it very quickly cuz I was younger and I was like, Yeah, I'm, I got this, I'm gonna do this. And um, so we, I started [00:12:00] trying when he was, I think nine months old. Okay. So we, we were hoping for like a two year age gap at max.

  Like, you know, thinking yeah, it'll take a bit of time, but yeah. Not the four or five year, uh, gap that, I think it's four and a half years between them.

  [00:12:14] Why you should use Google to arm yourself with information (instead of asking queer folks to do the work)

  Surabhi: And so can you tell me about your, both of your experiences? Getting pregnant with, um, having a family.

  Sophia: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Um, yeah, absolutely. And so I will say, I, I'm answering these questions cuz it's done on, on a podcast, but if you, if you do look at my keynote, one of the things I say is Google these questions before you ask people.

  Yeah. Um, mostly because, and you know, it's not unique to just my experience, it's a lot of people who are trying to have babies, they have different experiences. Right. And it's recognizing you. If you know a little bit about them, you could probably arm yourself with some more information before you go, um, you know, go right at them because there's a lot of vulnerability involved in, in, in the process.

  Surabhi: Right. And the one thing that stuck out [00:13:00] to me is that people assume. Everyone assumes that this is how you get pregnant, this is how you meet someone. This is how a relationship goes. But more and more what I see anyways with the clients that I work with, there is no normal, Everyone is I don't even think that your experience is different. I just think that we are all different, so, Yeah. Yeah. You know, going in with the assumption that this is how you get pregnant is just not, it's not right. So thank you for, Thank you for bringing that up, and thank you for sharing this with us because it's true.

  People could go Google a lot of things. There's answers to everything online.

  [00:13:33] The journey to having their first child

  Sophia: That's true. It's true. Um, yeah. So with, so we decided that my wife would go first. So we decided Tamara would go first, and that was primarily due to age. Um, I'm totally outing that she's older. Sorry babe. Um, . And, um, so we, we were like, Yeah, okay, you go first cuz you know, we, and we were cognizant that the process could take long cuz we had some friends who had gone through it.

  [00:13:56] Finding a sperm donor (that isn't white and blond)

  Sophia: Um, and it took, you know, six to eight months, um, [00:14:00] to get pregnant. So we were like, okay. And what that means though, that six to eight months is that you spend weeks doing blood work every morning at 7:00 AM and then you got, Well no, actually, before all of this, we had to first pick a sperm. Right. And that process is super easy if you're looking for a Caucasian, blonde, blue eyes, Tons of options.

  Tons of options. Now, what we wanted was to find someone who looked like me. Now I'm South Asian. I have, you know, curly, dark, dark hair. Um, I'm very hairy. Um, , me too . We're just blessed with it. Yeah. Um, you know, I, I, I am lighter skin tone. And so these are the sort of things we're, like, the criteria we're going with in this search.

  So basically you can search online for if you, if you wanna, an unknown donor in the sense of it's not someone you know. Yeah. Um, and so that's a process we, we chose. And so we went online and basically you're shopping for the [00:15:00] sperm to make your future children. And so luckily it actually didn't take us long at all.

  because we were so specific this guy existed, and I can't tell you how thankful I am for this man to, to donate his raw materials for us to have a family. Like I, I am so thankful for, for him to do that. I don't know his reasonings for doing it. Could it just been cash? Cuz in the US you, you get money, um, for donating.

  But essentially we found a guy, um, who looked a lot like me, um, and had really thick. Thick, curly hair, and we looked at them and we're like, He's perfect. And so we just bought a ton of sperm and so we, I think we bought like six vials and you're looking at like $1,500 a pop, right? Wow. Yeah. It's not cheap.

  It's not cheap because there's so many, like the, the donate, the person who donates gets money, but then the clinic gets money. Organizations, Yeah. There's just all this, [00:16:00] this is all privately funded, right? So it's tons of money. And then when you go to retrieve the sperm from the sperm bank, you gotta pay, you gotta pay the shipping.

  [00:16:09] Their wife’s intrauterune insemination (IUI)

  Sophia: And then you gotta pay for every time you try and inseminate. So what we did was it was called, um, intrauterine insemination. So it's IUI for short. And so Tamara went through six of those. And so essentially what that is, is you go in the clinic, it's all very, very timed. So you know, you're getting your, your blood work done.

  As soon as your blood work is showing that you're ovulating, then they call you in the following day to inseminate you with the hopes that you know, your eggs are out at the, at a good time. There's like, I think a three to five day window for your eggs to be there and for the sperm to meet and you're really hoping for them to love each other enough to make this baby, um, and make it successfully.

  So for her, it took six tries, um, took some breaks in between, and then, you know, finally it was, uh, it was Mother's [00:17:00] Day. And it was the day before I remember I ran my first sporting life marathon, um, the 10 K. And I was like, you know, and I, I believe in spirituality and, and, and God and whatnot. I remember running and I was just thinking, like looking up to the sky and I was like, Please let this be the one, Let this be the one.

  And the next day I came home. Tamara had gone for her blood work, got the call, and she had this little setup of baby PJs on the, on the table oh my gosh. To say it worked and we were just ecstatic. It was like, it was incredible. Um, you know, and her pregnancy was, was relatively smooth. It was, it was easy.

  [00:17:38] Wondering where they belonged as the partner

  Sophia: Um, I think for her, for me, it's, I really started questioning where I belonged in this because a lot of, because you know, we used, you know, it was her eggs, donor sperm, and then me as this other parent. And so I was like, well, how, where do I fit in this process? Like, will this kid even love me? Will they even recognize me as a parent? [00:18:00] All these thoughts where I'm like, you know, do, do I even belong in this process?

  [00:18:06] How queer couples get treated different at fertility clinics

  Sophia: Um, but you know what, even I, I'll have to say, even through the fertility clinics, there were so many times where I was ignored as the partner. I was told to wait while she went in for stuff and I was like, No, Like I'm her partner.

  I'm part of this. Like, and so, you know, I was allowed to then come in, but I had to advocate for that, which was annoying versus just seen as part of this process. Because when you had. You know, heterosexual couples there, they just, they took them in together. They just, there was no stopping. Like, no, I'm not her sister.

  I'm not, I'm her partner. Like, we are doing this together. Um, and so I think that was contributing to a lot of what I was feeling once she finally did get pregnant and then, you know, all the changes were happening to her. This baby was feeling very real for her. And in that process, I had decided I really wanted to experience pregnancy.

  Um, mostly because I [00:19:00] kept asking her, What does it feel like to be pregnant? Like, what does it feel like when this baby's moving and kicking? And she was just like, I don't know, . Well, it's so hard to describe to someone who has not been pregnant. Yeah, that's what she said. Right? She's like, I don't know how to tell.

  I don't know what I kept asking. And she just couldn't. And I was just fascinated with the sciences of it. I was like, This is miraculous. The fact that you. Do this in a clinic, in any setting, you're just combining sperm and eggs, however you do. And then it just, then there it becomes this baby that's moving inside of you and then you give birth to this baby.

  Right? I mean, I, I've always called it a parasite cuz it's totally

  Surabhi: Oh, it 100% leeches everything out of you really. Right. And they still are parasites . Right. So like, children are innately selfish. Right. They like want everything for themselves. So that's, And you know, when you were sharing that, I really feel that they're, [00:20:00] we don't treat pregnant people like families.

  We just treat them like as them, like they're doing the work. Right. Which is true. But also they can't do it alone. They are supported by their partners. And so not being able to recognize you as, you know, somebody who needs to be in the room like that would've, that would've felt really, . That would've felt really hard.

  Sophia: Yeah. It, it felt like shit. It felt like,

  Surabhi: What year was this? Cuz this was eight years, nine years ago.

  Sophia: It was in 2014.

  Surabhi: So you can tell that it wasn't that long ago. Yeah. Like, no, you know, this is not like 1960s where you're like, Okay, . Like this is not the And this is in Toronto, which is a big city.

  Sophia: It is, it is. And, and a very, well, you know, known fertility clinic. Amazing doctor. Like the doctor was great. It was the other staff that weren't necessarily always, you know, up to, up to par of who I was in, in this journey. Yeah. Yeah.

  [00:20:53] Lack of respect leading to lack of belonging

  Sophia: Um, and so, you know, you, you forgive so much along the way, but along the way, you [00:21:00] know, my self-esteem becomes damaged, right? Yeah. My like, where do I fit in becomes, you know, And then of course we're celebrating, we're happy and everyone's so excited, but it's all happening to her. Yeah. And it's like, and then I would hear things like, you know, Oh, well how did you pick the dad? And, and then it was like, in the beginning, I would just be so angry and I would just, It's not dad, it's donor.

  I was gonna say, it's not the dad, the dad's not showing up. Right. It's No, just the, yeah, it's just the raw materials. But it took a lot out of me that that first round, in terms of the first round of when we were successfully, when she was successfully pregnant, the constant, like, you know, people would say, Dad, dad, dad.

  And I was like, No, it's donor. But you know, you know, looking back, I have to also recognize. Completely new to everybody else around us. Right? Like, they hadn't experienced anything like this and they didn't know the language to use. Um, can I say that they don't use it anymore? Absolutely [00:22:00] right. They, they're incredible.

  Uh, with that. And I mean, our kids are incredible. If anyone ever uses that, they'll say, donor. Mind you, my three year old is a little shit. Um, I don't know if, if swearing is allowed, but she constantly will be like, uh, you know, you're dad. And I'm like, No, I'm not your dad. . But she does it on purpose.

  Surabhi: Cause she, she knows it bothers you. Oh yeah. Um, the second children, I tell you, they just,

  Sophia: Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah, . Um, so that was our, our first sort of experience with, with our, our first, that was, he was born in 2015. Um, do you want me to go into the second, or you have questions about that one? How was it, When's he, your first is a he or what gender pronouns do attribute?. Okay. Yeah.

  He's, he, him, Yeah.

  Surabhi: Um, how did you feel once he was born? Did you, Oh, it was still kind of like, you weren't part of it, or

  [00:22:53] How hard it is as a partner as your wife is having a C-section

  Sophia: No, it was, it was, you know, when they talk, like when there's a term love at first sight, uh, you know, I did [00:23:00] feel it with Tamara. Yes. Um, but when I saw him, uh, so she ended up having a c-section.

  And you know what the whole, the c-section process, I don't think people, um, can appreciate what the partner feels like when they watch their par. And if, especially if it's, it wasn't an emergency, but it needed to be done cuz this baby wasn't coming out any other way. Like, I was terrified. I had to keep asking my midwife that she would be okay.

  Like she's gonna be okay. Right. Because in context where my fears coming from is that my mom had a, had a c-section with both of us, my brother and myself. But in her second one, she lost so much blood that they had to give her blood transfusions, but then they gave her tainted blood, um, because there was a tainted blood scandal back in the eighties in, in Toronto.

  Um, between, and the tainted blood had aids or. Uh, hepatitis. And so she ended up getting hepatitis C um, through that. So there was just [00:24:00] so much fear about, you know, potentially losing here, something's gonna happen and there's, yeah. So we, you know, go through all that.

  [00:24:07] Meeting your baby: love at first sight

  Sophia: And then he was born and it was just like, holy, we have a baby

  And he was just this little angel, like, just, just, it was amazing. It was just incredible. I didn't wanna sleep. I just wanted to hold him all the time. Like he just felt so real. And I think what was amazing is that everyone who came to visit, Um, the hospital cuz my wife has a huge family. They were like, um, but he looks like you ,

  Surabhi: you're like, Yes,

  Sophia: exactly. I can't tell you how ecstatic I was and people were I the looks on their faces. They were so confused. , it was the .

  Surabhi: You're like, what kinda what did you do here? Honestly, to make this happen,

  [00:24:52] Feeling a sense of responsibility and belonging

  Sophia: you just couldn't understand how she gave birth and he looked like me and like they just, no one could [00:25:00] comprehend it.

  I couldn't see it at the time. Um, and it was just, but it's just, I feel like it's just nature's way, right? Like it's just the way of doing it and, and it's, I mean it's look like when people have dogs, your dogs end up looking like them too. Right? It's true. . Yeah.

  Surabhi: Everyone end up kinda looking similar. Yeah.

  Sophia: Um, I agree. So I think that was, I think that was really remarkable for me to, to hear that he looked like me and I, you know, I didn't question whether I belong cuz I knew my responsibility to this kid. You know, I knew it the moment she got pregnant, but I also knew the moment I held him. Yeah. And I was the first one to hold him post medical because she, she had had a, um, the C-section.

  It was just like the most incredible thing. I'm like, This is mine. This is ours. And he is our responsibility. And yeah, no, I haven't looked back since.

  [00:25:53] How pregnancy is for non-birthing parents

  Surabhi: I'm, I'm really glad to hear that. I think that is something I think my partner can probably resonate with too, [00:26:00] though it was his sperm. Yeah. It's, they don't, I, this is what I felt as a pregnant person during my first pregnancy.

  I was like, every second. Life every second of my day, I'm thinking about this baby. Yeah. But my husband is going to work not thinking about the baby. Yeah. Like, because it was happening to my body. I couldn't, I was at work with my clients, but somewhere I was also thinking about the baby Absolutely.

  Nonstop. And you can't not do that. And so it becomes very real for the pregnant person, very fast. And I can see how the other person, the, the partner would feel like, Okay, where do I play a role in all this? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and that's something that I've never talked about on this podcast. Um, thank you for bringing that up.

  Now I wanna hear about your, your own experience with fertility and pregnancy and when did. because you mentioned that you were hoping to have your children closer together. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so you started trying kind of nine months when your son was Nine months.

  [00:26:57]

  Sophia: When he was nine months old. Cause we thought, you know, Okay.

  We [00:27:00] knew it took six months for him. And here I was so confident. I was 33 at the time. Um, I'm, I'm proud and 40 now. Um, but you know, I was, I was 33 super excited and I was like, I got this, you know, I'm young, I'm in good health and. No, this is gonna happen. My eggs are great. They're amazing , you know, there's no question about them, and we're we got this.

  Lo and behold, I learned my eggs likely really, really detest sperm because every attempt just did not work. So,

  [00:27:37] In vitro fertilization (IVF) or ICSI and the high costs

  Sophia: What's really nice that in Canada, and now I don't know if this still exists, but I, I think it does, is that back in, um, I can't even tell you what year, but it wasn't that long ago. In the last 10 years, in the last decade, the government, um, through the advocacy of many, many people, um, you know, who work in the fertility process and, um, have dealt with infertility, advocated for funding.[00:28:00]

  And so what the government agreed upon was your first IVF cycle. Um, so that's in vitro fertilization or ICSI, which is similar. I can talk through that in a bit. It would be funded. And so what you're looking at is all the fees, all the practitioner fees would be funded. So that's about 10 to $12,000 that you don't have to think about out of pocket.

  The, what you do have to think about out of pocket are the co the medication costs. Okay. So that's, so we got, so I went through three IUI cycles, so just. You know, put, let's put the sperm in. So lots of blood work. 7:00 AM let's find out when you're ovulating. And I was so annoyed because I would always feel like they're not getting it on time or that they should do this, they should do that.

  Like, I'm the doctor, right? Like it's, it's similar. During the pandemic, everyone became an immunologist, right? And so , you know, I thought I knew more. I didn't, They were doing the best they could, but there's so much emotion. There's so much emotion. And then I did an IVF cycle, um, early on, so it [00:29:00] was my fourth try because we're like, Okay, we we're eligible for the funding.

  Let's go and do it. Let's use it. Yeah. Yeah. And so this was just after he turned one, I was eligible for the funding, uh, cycle. And so we went through it and I ended up with nothing. There were nine eggs extracted. Um, two, and then, you know, they were all inseminated and two of them were kind of still going at it at day four.

  When I went in and they don't tell you all this, so when you, they tell you at day three what the, So basically they're expecting it to turn to a blast that they can then put into your, that they can transfer into your uterus. So they only tell you up to day three. So when you go in in day five, you have no idea if there's anything left.

  They just, they don't tell you, or at least this clinic didn't. And so we went in day five and at, you know, for the transfer and I'm so excited. And they were like, yeah, one of them didn't really make it. And the [00:30:00] one that we're going to try looks like it might, might not make it, so we're just gonna go for it.

  So, you know, I go in with that.

  [00:30:06]

  Sophia: We try, unfortunately that that cycle didn't work and then I decided I needed to switch clinics. Cuz during that clinic process there were so many things that were happening. Like, I was asked for my, my partner to come and bring his sperm and like, I just wasn't seen as who I was.

  Like, I was just seen as a, a number and part of the heterosexist system. Yeah. And it was exhausting. And, um, you know, mind you, it wasn't a long, lengthy process yet. I was only four tries in a century, but I thought for sure that's, I feel like that's still a long time in the sense of like anyone who's tried for a pregnancy of any kind and knows each month, how disappointing it is when you don't.

  Right. Don't have a baby. Yeah. I think what people don't understand in that is it's not tangible loss for like, that you can describe because like, I can't, there's, [00:31:00] there's nothing I've lost, but there is something I've lost because I've lost that hope. Hope, right? Because each month that you're ovulating, there's that and you're trying, there's that hope and that hope to create this child, to create the family.

  You've already created it all in your mind. And then it's, Sorry, no, it didn't work this month and. You know, so, but I, I was, I think the IVF was what really, really set me back. Cuz I thought, of course an IVF would work because I'm not coming into the fertility process with any known issues. Right, right.

  Because typically you're healthy, everything else is. Yeah, exactly. Like we're only here because we have to be here because we don't have an alternative way to create a children. Yeah. So we're here not cuz of the medical route, but because of like, necessary, you know, we needed it. And so in, in my mind I was like, well there's, um, medically it seems like everything is fine, so this should work.

  And, and I was led to [00:32:00] believe it should work because on paper everything looked great. So it was a really big blow, a big blow to my self-esteem. A big blow to, I, I just felt like I was a failure and that feeling lasted for many years. Um, because every month that we switched clinics, and again, And I think in total I tried 11, No, I'm, I think 13 iis.

  Wow. Um, and Wow. Yeah. And then we then said, and we, we switched donors, um, as well. Cuz we thought, let's, so let's go find someone who looks like my wife. We found someone, he was super cute. Um, not as tall as we would've wanted. . But like, and it's funny right? Because we had no idea. We're like, Okay, what does five 10 actually look like?

  So we went around to all the men in our lives, we're like, How tall are you? How tall are you? And uh, you know, we'd be like, one, one guy was like five 10. We're like, Okay. All right. That's exactly , right? Cause [00:33:00] like you, we just, we, I mean that's, I guess that's a nice thing in that we do get to shop around much more than for if you're with one single life partner Yeah.

  That you wanna make children with. Yeah. And so, you know, we tried with a different donor and then at the same time we both came back to each other and said, Let's go back to the original donor. Um, you know, we know it's worked, so let's go back. We tried unsuccessfully many, many times and then, um, we applied for my wife to get IVF funding cuz she had never gone through IVF.

  And we just said, Okay, you know what? Let's just switch back to you. It's too exhausting.

  [00:33:35] Why partners may not understand fertility challenges in the same way

  Sophia: And I think the hardest part, and I think anyone who's dealt with fertility, who has a partner, is that the partners just don't get it as intimately as what you're going through. Like they just don't, they don't underst because like I said earlier, the loss is not tangible.

  But I'm not saying that the loss is not real for them either. And I think I didn't appreciate that each time because I knew she, for her, she saw the hurt, right? She [00:34:00] saw the pain. And it's also, she's going through the same too, in a different way. But I was just so self-absorbed in why it's not happening to me and my body's a failure that, um, I didn't even acknowledge that, you know, she's probably processing loss at the same time.

  Um, but she was wonderful in that, of course. The best and does never centers herself. And so she didn't, right. It was all about me and, and me going through this. And, but then at the end we're like, Okay, you know what? It's worked with you, so just you go through it because there's just no point anymore. And I'm, I'm done.

  [00:34:33] Giving up sugar and other sacrifices while trying to have a baby

  Sophia: I, I have to give up. Um, in that process, I gave up sugar for two years. Like I did everything possible to think this is how my body would get better to have babies. And it's, it's not that. So anyone who's trying to restrict food because you think it's gonna help you have a baby, I can tell you , it may not, it may not.

  So eat that burger, eat that cake, eat whatever you want, because yeah, honestly, you need to give yourself comfort and [00:35:00] compassion going through this. And that's one thing I didn't do. I was not compassionate with myself going through the process.

  Surabhi: Um, I, I obviously don't, I don't have that experience that you have.

  Um, and I, but I work with a lot of people who've had difficulty with fertility, and I really don't think that anyone who hasn't had that experience will understand. But what I see is that we all need to be more compassionate with people who may or may not be going through this. Because when you ask a family, Oh, when are you having a child?

  Or When you having your next one, you have no idea what they're going through. Absolutely. And it's at, first of all, it's none of our business, but also sometimes it's from people who are our family members who truly care about us. So they're not saying it with, um, you know, in a to be mean, they just truly care.

  But also doesn't mean you're ready to share what you're going through with everyone around you either because it's such a deeply personal issue. Yeah.[00:36:00]

  [00:36:01] Unrealistic expectations from society

  Sophia: But it's also back to like these assumptions that, you know, these, you gotta get married, you gotta buy a house, you gotta have kids. You gotta then put the kids in university, or no, you gotta breastfeed or chest feed.

  You gotta, And then if you do that past a year, oh my God, something's wrong with you. Like there's just all these expectations of when things should happen and people have to recognize that. Like not everybody wants kids. And you know what, That's okay. And that's even better. The people who recognize that they don't want kids, I appreciate them so deeply because they would end up being awful parents.

  Yeah. Because they, I don't wanna be parents. Right? Yeah. I think our parents' generations and those, you know, before them didn't have those types of choices. They were just held to those expectations. And so it's the same thing, right? That generation of parents are expecting their children to have children.

  And, and it's this whole like as soon as you get, okay, when, when are the babies coming? And it's like, but you have no [00:37:00] idea what we're going through. And sometimes, you know, I have, I have family members who, who have been trying for years, You know, it's, it's like, it's something that is so, you're so vulnerable and as a person going through it, you just feel like a failure.

  And now it's just being highlighted by your family members because you still don't have the, these said children that you're, you know, that the g you know, expecting grandparents are waiting for. And so it's such an awful process. So I, you know, for, for me, my recommendation is really just to get to know people, have conversations with them, and let them share the information if they want to, when they're ready.

  If they don't, Yeah, Yeah. When they're ready. If, if they don't want to, don't ask them when they're having kids. Like, you know, if they wanna have kids, they'll ask you about things or they'll share information. But otherwise it's not, it's frankly no one's business. No. Yeah.

  Surabhi: And my brother's 42 and he doesn't have kids and he's like not partnered.

  And when I was probably 10 years younger, we would harass him. When, when are you [00:38:00] gonna get my, Yeah. And now I'm like, Oh my gosh, this guy's so wise. Like he's truly so wise because he knows he would not, he doesn't want kids. He wouldn't make, he wouldn't make a good parent. And he knows that. And I like, like you, I truly respect people who maybe they would make great parents, but they don't want kids.

  And I respect that decision so much. Our parents didn't have that choice, like you said. Mm-hmm. , they were forced into that very limited, narrow view of what is acceptable. And frankly speaking, I often think my dad should never have had kids knowing who he is. Right? Yeah. Like, I'm glad I'm here, but like at the same time I can recognize that so many people of that generation would've been better off not having kids because Yeah.

  It was deeply traumatizing to them.

  [00:38:40] Coming out to their family

  Sophia: Well, and even I think for my mom, um, Her deep sadness. And when I came out to her, you know, back when I was a teenager, her, her greatest sadness was her fear that I would not have kids. Um, that was, yeah, that was her, you know, that I wouldn't live a quote unquote, normal life [00:39:00] because I wouldn't have kids.

  And, um, and, uh, yeah, that was, that was one of her greatest concerns, right? Like, that it wasn't gonna happen for me. And it was like, well, you know, it, it happened. It just happened in a different way. And, you know, she's, she's great with them now, but I think, you know, for her it was a very long process of how do I process this information?

  I'm not, you know, she has three grandkids from my brother, but she didn't, she didn't think she would ever get them from me.

  [00:39:26] Their incredible pregnancy journey

  Surabhi: And I'm glad she did. I'm glad she did too. So when, uh, when you finally did get pregnant mm-hmm. , how did you feel? Was it the exciting pregnancy, you know, excited feelings that you had?

  Sophia: Yeah, so, well, I'll go back to, you know, so we had decided with Tamara doing it, right? That's right. Yeah. So we decided, uh, you know, she would go through the process and so she went through the egg retrieval process and we were told her numbers look great on paper. It's gonna be amazing. She's gonna have tons of eggs, We're gonna have tons of choice.

  [00:40:00] Guess what? We didn't have a ton of choice. We ended up with one single embryo. Just one. Um, yeah, just the egg extract. She didn't develop a, she didn't produce a lot of eggs, um, that they had hoped and, um, of the eggs that, yeah, we just had one. And, uh, we, I remember so clearly sitting in the doctor's office and he, he, he's so wonderful.

  But at that time, obviously, I thought he wasn't, Cuz you're vulnerable, right? And this process is very, it's a privatized, you know, private medical care system. So you think they just care about the dollars. And I remember, um, him sitting there and saying to us, telling us that there's one embryo, it looks very good, you know, based on all the analysis that I've done.

  It's a good embryo, but there is only one. And so, you know, I immediately in my mind thought, Okay, this is, well Tamara's gonna do it cuz she has a successful pregnancy. We, we know it's worked in her body, so we'll go with that. And he looked at us and he [00:41:00] said, Because he knew how long I'd been trying and he said, This embryo can go in either of your bodies.

  The success rates may not differ at all. Um, and so cuz they had done like my uterine testing and and whatnot. So they, they, you know, they said, and she sat there and she was incredible and she said, You do this and um, but I don't want you to do this. And if it doesn't work for you to carry that with you.

  And, um, Sorry, I'm gonna get emotional here.

  Surabhi: I know I'm tearing up too.

  Sophia: It was amazing cuz it was selfless of her in recognizing how much I wanted this. Um, and I, I was like, okay. All right. Yes. Okay. If it's a loss, it's not my fault if it's a loss and let's do this. And, um, But what we did [00:42:00] was we took this little one embryo and we froze it for seven months cuz we were like, We're gonna go on vacation, we're gonna figure stuff out.

  And so we went to Italy, had the best vacation for three weeks, took our son. He was three and a half at the time. And then, um, you know, and I wanted some time. I didn't feel ready yet to Yeah.

  Surabhi: Didn't wanna be rushed into this when you were super

  Sophia: Yeah, yeah. And so we, we came back, it was then January of, uh, 2019 and we're like, All right, let's do it. We played some music in the, in, I, I actually, I had a, a dream the night before of one of the doctors, and not even the doctor that I was working with, doing the, the transfer of the embryo. And then she ended up being the one who transferred the embryo, which was no way. Really weird. Yeah. Um, but we played music and we laughed a lot.

  Like I remember we just, we were so relaxed that day and, um, And then we, we just, we, [00:43:00] we just hoped and prayed that it would work. And then, um, so you wait, I think the wait period is six days because six to eight days, I can't remember. But it's shorter than your regular wait of uh, two weeks because this, this blastocyst is already five to six things more developed.

  Yeah. Yeah. And so I remember I had to, the blood work should have been on the weekend, but cuz the blood labs are closed, I would have to go in on the Monday for the blood work to find out if I was pregnant. But of course I started taking home pregnancy tests cuz who doesn't, right? Yes. Yeah. And I had, I've, I took pregnancy tests throughout the years.

  I always took them. Yeah. And so, you know, they'd always be negative. And then this time there was a faint, faint, faint, faint positive line. And I remember being like, Holy shit, it's happened. And I knew, I honestly, I'm like, I knew, I knew it had happened because there was just this feeling that was so different from [00:44:00] all the other times.

  And I was just like, I, I think this is. And I looked into, I remember sending a picture to Tamara and she's like, This is great, babe, but like, let's just wait until let's . Yeah, yeah. And I remember sending it to my friends and I was like, It, like, Do you, do you see what I see? And they're like, Oh my God. Oh my God.

  Everyone, we're all, we're all super ecstatic. And I sent it to one of my dearest closest friends. He, he passed away in 2019. Um, but he was a big part of this process too, in, in terms of at work. Someone who, Nick, he, he was amazing. Very, very, just supportive and um, He was, he was also the real talk in my head.

  He was like, This is amazing, but you, you just be realistic if this is blah, blah blah. Right. Like, just everything of like, just let's wait for the blood work until we can really celebrate. Yeah. And then blood work comes, it, it's, you know, she says it's positive. I'm like, Yeah, I took some tests. I know

  Surabhi: You're [00:45:00] like, I already knew .

  Sophia: Oh my gosh. And then the beauty of being through the fertility clinic is you get to go for ultrasounds at seven weeks and then you get to go, um, and then they sort of move you then into the regular system. Okay. So I got to see how this, this fetus was progressing and, and hear the heartbeat, like when we went for that heartbeat, it was the most incredible, incredible feeling in, in the whole world.

  It was like, Oh my God, my body is growing another human being like, Holy crap. And, and then, okay, what are the odds that this is gonna go wrong? Because there are more odds of it not developing to term than it, like, it's wild when you actually read about the development of, of fetuses. It's like, how does this happen?

  Surabhi: Like, I know it's, it's a true miracle that anyone is here. Like I, that's how I feel after going through like just pregnancies and learning more about it. Um, and I, I do,

  [00:45:55] Parenting a young child while dealing with infertility and depression

  Surabhi: one thing I wanted to say is that you were going through all of this stuff while also being [00:46:00] a parent to a young child. Yes. Yes. Which is incredibly hard.

  Being a parent to a young child is hard in itself. And if you are going through a lot of, I. It probably affected every aspect of your, your life and your health.

  Sophia: Everything, everything. I was unhappy. I was very depressed. I was seeing an amazing therapist who, who, um, actually dealt with a lot of people dealing with infertility.

  She was incredible. Um, my, my boss at the time, Matt, who passed away, um, he was so supportive too. He said I needed to take a leave of absence. Um, and I was so distant from my kid, from my wife, like, I was so broken. I was so broken, right. And it was just, I didn't feel like I knew who I was anymore. Um, And what, what, how I, like, what do I do?

  How do I go on, this is something I really want and why isn't it happening to me? And it just, But you know what? I had an incredible support network. I, I met some [00:47:00] wonderful, um, friends through this. Um, and, you know, they were incredible through the whole process. Um, so yeah, you know, I found people to lean on, which really got me through it.

  And now, and actually Reena, who's been on your podcast was one of those humans. And I,

  Surabhi: I, I mean, Reena is incredible, so I figured her people are also incredible . Um, but that, I think anyone who has been through any period of depression knows that what you feel during that, during that time is, is very dark and it can be very lonely, but it's.

  It's not the real you in the sense that that's not who you are. You're not defined by, you know what you're going through at any given period of, of your life. Right? Yeah. And I think that people who are, who love you obviously recognize you for you even when maybe you, you couldn't recognize yourself.

  Yeah. Um, and I think that's what's truly special about relationships and connection and community, is we need [00:48:00] it, It's essential for every single person to be Yeah. To be here and to be thriving. Yeah. And I feel like we lost so much of that during the pandemic, but you had. Daughter, I believe. Yeah.

  Sophia: Right before the pandemic.

  Surabhi: Right before the pandemic. Right before nine. Okay.

  Sophia: And I had all these hopes and dreams of what we were gonna do during my, my parental leave, but that didn't pan out in the same way. Yeah.

  [00:48:23] Pregnancy as a non-binary person, dealing with body changes

  Sophia: And you know, pregnancy was amazing. I know you asked me how I felt and I was ecstatic. Ecstatic through all of it. Um, except when I realized my body was changing and my, my chest was growing.

  Um, now I, I haven't, I've generally been on the smaller side. Uh, you know, I gained weight, so, you know, my chest got bigger. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. And then, but it started growing during pregnancy. And the one thing was I had made it clear, cuz I have, as a, you know, as a person who identifies as non-binary, I, I really hate my chest.

  I don't connect with it. I have, uh, you know, even [00:49:00] from an intimate perspective, I don't, I don't want anyone touching my chest. It's just not an area that I've ever connected with intimately, Um, or even outward. Um, and so I made it clear to the midwife right from the, the beginning Yeah. That I wasn't going to, I wasn't going to be, you know, chest or breastfeeding and, um, she was amazing, incredibly supportive.

  Great. Yep. Okay. I got you. Don't worry. I will, I will take care of it. Um, which was great, but you know,

  [00:49:29]

  Sophia: I needed to then find clothing that I felt comfortable in. Yeah. And I've always felt really comfortable in expressing my gender through my clothing. Yeah. Um, and you know, I say this in my keynote, but my mom was extremely supportive in that regard as conservative.

  She's a conservative Muslim human being. Um, but she was the most supportive parent in allowing me to express myself the. Felt right for me. And, um, I hope I can do that for my kids. But she, she was [00:50:00] incredible. She, but she, uh, she, you know, blames herself for, for making me gay because she let me wear my brother's tuxedo when I was sick.

  She's convinced that that's, that's the moment that it happened.

  Surabhi: That's the moment it happened.

  Sophia: But maybe as a parent, she might have seen the joy I felt. Yeah. So maybe in her mind, you know, as I sort of break this down, maybe in her head, she actually did see it. Um, and she saw the joy that I felt putting on my brother's suit.

  But, and so that's why she thinks that's what made me gay is allowing me to express myself.

  Surabhi: Um, in reality it was just you for probably for the first time feeling like,

  Sophia: safe, this is me and me. Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Right. And, and having a parent, um, who allowed me to do that. And the thing is, like, I grew up in a community where we did, um, Uh, performances, like dances, um, every like December and July or whatever.

  And so my cousin was the girl dancer, and I always took on the [00:51:00] boy role, right? Because we, we were acting out Bollywood, so we would do all Bollywood. I love it. And I was always the boy and even in, um, so I'm Ismaili. So even in the, in the Kae, which is a mosque, you know, we would perform these things on stage and everyone knew I just played the boy role.

  And it was amazing. And I think that was so instrumental in who I became as a, as an adult in, and how confident I became in my identity. But in pregnancy for the first time, I found myself so conflicted because here's all this clothing that doesn't. Feel right from my repertoire of clothing. Right. It's all frilly and frumpy and, And I think flowery and the person who goes through this, right, like you look at your options and you're like, These are not great options.

  You're like, None of these are me. Yeah, . Exactly right. Because as you probably know, when you're going through it, your body's not even yours. Right. It's not, it's just, it's a, there's a, it's a host to this [00:52:00] parasite, essentially. That is the best way of putting it. Literally, that you are hosting this parasite that is growing and you, that you want, but also you have zero control over your body at that time.

  Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so going through the process, I was feeling very disassociated with my gender identity. I didn't know how to express myself anymore because clothing was my way to express my gender. And now I didn't have that option because pregnancy was extremely limiting in my option options for clothing.

  And so I found myself and even t-shirts, right? They were all v-neck t-shirts. And here I am typically, actually, this is always buttoned up to my neck. So I always have my dress shirts buttoned up to my neck. Um, I wear crew neck t-shirts. Like I, I never wear V-neck t-shirts. And now, That's all I was wearing V-neck t-shirts with like cleavage showing and, you know, everything was tight, which was fine.

  I, I don't mind wearing like skinnies, [00:53:00] but apparently they're not in style anymore. and keeping all my skinnies but, you know, I was wearing skinnies and these t-shirts and I just felt so, I just didn't feel good. I didn't feel good with my body growing and I felt conflicted. And, you know, Tamara helped me find clothing that fit.

  I had to import some from the UK because here we didn't have many options. Um, just even t-shirts, I couldn't even find just general pregnancy t-shirts with like that were crew neck. Um, and so, you know, I ended up finding some, I made it through and then, um,

  [00:53:35] Their experience birthing and having a C-section

  Sophia: I ended up having a c-section as well. And, uh, the, that whole experience of birthing.

  Unreal . There were so many things that I was like, Holy shit, this is what people have to go through. Like it is unreal. But it, what's incredible is that both of us have been able to experience that in a relationship. And, and I, I, I know [00:54:00] so many men in my life who have, who have said to me like, that's really incredible that you also got to experience it because you, you typically to be both don't.

  Right. Get to experience that. So I am very fortunate that I did get to experience it, even with seven epidurals and lots of hands up my vagina. It was, uh, you know, it was a great experience.

  Surabhi: I, and I, I feel like you have so much more gratitude for that experience because of your history going into that experience versus somebody who maybe got pregnant like that ended up with this C-section who may have found that experience more traumatizing because, you know, and it's all, that's, I think that's why it's all, you know, perspective matters.

  Um, and. With, if both partners in a relationship experience that, I'm just thinking the deeper level of understanding and compassion and empathy and gratitude that you probably have when you're like, I've been through this as well, , and I know how hard it is. [00:55:00] Because part of it is I felt it was so unfair after I had my baby that it was my body going through all of these changes and my body that needs to recover.

  Like I'm a physio, so I know I support people through this because of that. Because I know in many ways it is unfair. Yeah. But I also know that the partner doesn't wanna always just be a useless, you know, sitting in the background. They also wanna help. And I, Yeah, I, I, This is incredible. I'm so happy that this is how it happened, even though I know you had so many years of hardship going through.

  But I can, you know, one thing I I didn't point out was, while it's amazing, there was also, we went through the midwifery experience and we ended up having the same midwife that we. When Tamara was pregnant, which is amazing. She's incredible.

  [00:55:48] The assumption that they should know what to expect

  Surabhi: But there was also an assumption that because my wife went through it, we knew what to expect and um, and you're like, Nope, this is all new for me.

  Yeah. That's the thing. Right? And that, [00:56:00] and your body's different. That that's what it was. And, and, and it made me quite upset through the process because there were questions I would have because there were changes that were happening to my body. Not because we'd already gone through pregnancy or Tamara had gone through pregnancy and we know what to expect, but that, you know, I'm still a different human being.

  Like I, I still have different like thoughts and you know, have questions. And so there was that underlying assumption because we've gone. It was like she was seeing the same person again, but it wasn't the same person. It was an entirely different human being. So that's something that I think, you know, while yes, amazing that we both got to experience it, we were both also seen as one through the experience, which, you know, it wasn't the same.

  Like yes, we both ended up having a c-section, but my post experience was extremely, extremely different, uh, than hers.

  And what was your, you had mentioned that you'd had, um, postpartum preeclampsia. [00:57:00] Yes. Can you tell me what that is and,

  [00:57:01] Postpartum preeclampsia and importance of advocating for oneself

  Sophia: Yeah. I want the world to know about this and, and just look for these symptoms.

  So, um, I was three, four days out, um, from, from giving birth. We had come home very fairly quickly. We didn't wanna stay in the hospital. Um, Everything checked out fine. And so about three days in, I started swelling up a lot. My feet were swelling up, my hands were swelling up, and typically swelling's supposed to go down.

  And that's what they tell you too, right? When you leave the hospital, your swelling's supposed to come down. My, the secondary midwife had come to check on me and, you know, they checked my blood pressure, they check things, and I was starting to have trouble breathing, especially when I was lying down. I was having trouble breathing.

  And so my midwife, bless them, um, thought it was anxiety, and so gave me these tips and tools on how to breathe. And I was like, Okay, all right. Yeah. Okay. Maybe it is anxiety. I'll chalk it up to that. Thursday night comes, I'm having lots of [00:58:00] trouble breathing when I'm on my back, like, you know, ignoring it.

  I'm also still, I'm feeling like my feet. I can feel the liquid in my feet as I'm walking. Like they're feeling really heavy, you know? And, um, That was the Thursday. And I had said that, and they said, you know, just keep doing the breathing exercises, you're probably fine. So Thursday night I go to bed and I wake up like, I can't breathe.

  I can't breathe at all in the laying position. Like I just can't catch breath. And so then I said to Tamara, I said, No, something is really wrong here. Like something, this is not normal. Yeah, yeah. And I knew it, I knew, I was like, And that's what I actually said. Those are the words. I said, This is not normal.

  Something is wrong. So she's like, All right, let's call, let's call the ambulance. Cuz it was 3:00 AM We have a brand new baby right next to us in the bassinet. And, and then our son who's, you know, four and a half sleeping in the other room. And um, so she can't [00:59:00] leave, she can't take me to the hospital. So we're like, Okay, let's call, let's call the ambulance.

  Ambulance is there, it's like three 30 in the morning. They arrive and, um, you know, do all the, the, the work They like, everything looks fine. One of the paramedics, one of the, maybe it was the fire. Yeah. Um, the fire. No, what are they called? Firefighters. Firefighters. Firefighters. Fire. Yeah. They're like fire chief.

  Yeah. Firefighters. Yeah, firefighters. Um, you know, um, she was telling me about her birth experience and yeah, it can be hard and everyone's kind of dismissing that I'm actually legitimately feeling something wrong with my body. And so they're, and they're like, Well, because we're here and it's protocol, we have to take you to the hospital.,

  [00:59:44] When serious medical concerns are blamed on anxiety

  Sophia: I was like, Okay. You know, so I'm in this ambulance by myself. I'm getting very emotional and then I'm like, Maybe it is anxiety. Is it anxiety? Because every time I'd lie down, I couldn't breathe. I couldn't breathe at all. And I feel like that's a clear sign that that's not anxiety. Cause it's like mostly when you're lying down.[01:00:00]

  Yeah. He's like, Yeah, no, it could be anxiety. And the thing is, they checked, you know, my, my pulse and my heart rate and everything seemed to be fine. I go to the hospital, I explain, you know, they finally take me into triage. The, the, the paramedics just casually explain. Yeah. She's having some trouble breathing.

  And just recently had a baby, and here I am in the stretcher. I just had a C-section seven days ago and I'm like yelling that I just like, I had major surgery seven days ago and something doesn't feel right. You know, They're like, Okay, okay. Eventually I get moved in. To a room and I go and ask, not a room, sorry, in the waiting area for patients that have been triaged now.

  Yes. But it's inside and they go, Okay, go and sit down over there. And then I'm, so I go back to the counter and I ask how many people are ahead of me? And they said, 17. What? Yeah. And this was three 30 in the morning in September of 2019. So this was before the [01:01:00] pandemic. Wow. There were, there were that 17 people in the middle of the night, in the middle of the night to be treated at the hospital.

  And I, I, I was, I, I lost my shit. I was like, I just had a C-section and you're asking me to sit in a chair. Is there a room? No, Sorry. First I ask, is there a room available? They're like, No, no, sorry. We have no rooms. Then I got really upset. I got very emotional and I said, I just had a C-section. Like, I cannot sit on a chair.

  No. All of a sudden, miraculously right in front of the nurse's station, they open and it's an empty bed. And I was like, Oh, okay. So they let me go in that. And I had, during that time in the hospital, one of the nurses said, Oh, you must have the baby blues. And I was like, No, I don't have the baby blues. Something is wrong with me.

  [01:01:51] Why diversity and representation in healthcare matters

  Sophia: And then actually a nurse, um, a South Asian nurse actually heard me, so came over to me and I, and she's like, Are you okay? [01:02:00] And I said, Can I have some water? She asked me, What's going on? She's like, Okay, let me see if I can get you seen faster. She gets me moved to the, another area where I was seen. And uh, they went in, you know, got my X-rays done, not X-rays, but a CT scan Yeah.

  Of my lungs and, and my heart to see what was going on. I had five liters of fluid built up on my lungs and I had heart failure. Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. five liters. And heart failure. Mm-hmm. . And is this a complication of a C-section or is this No, it's just a complication of pregnancy. A pregnancy, and my blood pressure had skyrocketed.

  Um, and so they didn't know what was going on because this is so rare. They had no idea. Right. The doctor came and he was like, Yeah, you have, you have litres and litres of fluid on your lungs. And, um, so, you know, gave me diuretics and I [01:03:00] just kept peeing out. It was great. Weight loss , or like, I'm instantaneously 15 pounds, five pounds.

  Yeah, it was five pounds lighter. I went in and came out. Um, but they admitted me into the cardiac icu, um, essentially for, for. Three, three days. I was there for two nights, three days, you know, getting shots to make sure I don't get, I don't have a clot and I don't die. Constant heart monitoring. Um, and yeah, they came in and said, Yeah, I had mild congestive heart failure and here I am, 37, just gave birth.

  [01:03:35] Why we need to believe our patients

  Sophia: And you're sitting here telling me I have mi, mild congestive heart failure. I've never had heart issues in my life. And then on top of that, I was told I could never carry again. Because it's too high of a risk and this sort of stuff, like the thing is like I had to keep telling people something was wrong.

  No one listened to me, like my midwife who, my midwives, who were incredible [01:04:00] and they apologized after the fact. I think it was a really good learning experience for them because they realized, okay, when we know a patient is talking about not being able to breathe, like these signs and symptoms, like, you know, if you're experiencing swelling that's going up.

  If your blood pressure is up and this can happen up to six weeks postpartum, um, blood pressure, swelling, um, and breathing, those are three, three things you can, you gotta pay attention to. Cuz it could end up, you could end up having a stroke and dying. Um, and, and it, and it's cuz your body goes through so much.

  Right? We all know the impact of pregnancy and childbirth on a body, but it's. Recovery isn't easy on the body either. Right. So much can go wrong. And this is rare. Um, but there are signs and symptoms and the thing is the healthcare practitioners are not, they don't, they don't know. They don't know. Yeah. As a person who's had a baby, they're extremely dismissive.

  They think you're hormonal. They think that maybe you don't wanna be with your baby. I don't know what they think, but they didn't [01:05:00] take me seriously at all. It was so much advocating at 3:30 in the morning while

  Surabhi: when you're a week postpartum post C-section. Exactly. When you're already like, I'm exhausted, I'm barely sleeping, and I just wanna sleep.

  Like, why would you? That's what I wanna know , what is in their mind to think that somebody wants to be at the hospital, first of all. Yeah. When they're a week postpartum, they would rather be sleeping in their own bed. Like Absolutely. Even if their baby's crying, it's their own space.

  Yeah. Versus like, and I, I, I do see a lot of. , um, postpartum folks, pregnant folks being dismissed Yeah. For their concerns. And I really do think that we know our bodies best. Like you joked earlier, like, you're not the doctor. But at, at the same time, I really do think that we have an innate ability to know our bodies best.

  Yeah. Just like babies, they know they're hungry. They will cry. Yeah. They don't need to be told that they're hungry, they just know. Yeah. We know when something's not right. And I do think that we need to listen. So, um, high blood pressure, increasing swelling, difficulty [01:06:00] breathing. Um, did you. When you went into, So it took a CT, that was the diagnosis that that happened.

  Sophia: Yeah. Then they saw the, the litres of the blood, that fluid. Yeah. Yeah. And um, you know, it was, it was terrifying. It was so terrifying. And I remember calling my circle of friends and you know, they showed up right away cuz they all lived near the hospital. Um, and they were there from the morning all throughout.

  Came back for dinner. My mom stayed. Um, so it was incredible. I had this incredible support system. My wife had her family at home with the baby, but like, I couldn't see the baby and I had just like, given birth to this kid. Right. And it's just like, I couldn't see her. It was, um,

  it was hard.

  I think what was hardest was also like thinking I was gonna die and no one, no one would believe me.[01:07:00]

  [01:07:03] Intersectionality and bias in healthcare

  Sophia: That was the hardest was they didn't, no one believed me. No one who is who, who has gone through the medical profession is believing me as a patient. They just, and, and it's absurd because you add on intersectional identities and it just gets worse. Right.

  Surabhi: I I always think, I'm like, If you are a white woman, how would that have changed?

  You were absolutely. You know, if you were, um, hetero, like if the way you presented was different, like, there's so many layers to that. Yeah. Yeah. And we know that this is, This happens in the States. There's research too. They research this in Canada. I don't know if there's race-based data and database, like, not as much is coming outta this.

  Sophia: How many black women die in childbirth and postpartum because their needs are not taken care of. They're not heard. And it happens. And I, and I saw [01:08:00] it too in the hospital. I remember being there and this guy had come in, you know, he had come in, um, drunk and like the number of people who would attend to his needs constantly versus mine.

  And I was like, What? I don't understand. Like, I just had major surgery. I cannot breathe. I, and I'm told I have the baby blues and then left to just go sit in a chair. Whereas this guy's given a room with a bed and like told to just recover and go home. And it's like,

  Surabhi: you're like, he literally just got drunk. He just needs an iv. He can sit. You'll be fine.

  Sophia: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, but like, you see it day in and day out, like the, the system is so broken, right? And, and I mean, textbooks, just think about textbooks, right? They're, they don't even have racial, like different color skin tones. No.

  Surabhi: Everything is white. And I think that, and the other thing is even as like, I'm a, a brown woman, I'm a South Asian woman, and [01:09:00] I also studied from a white lens, even though I'm not white, I have life experience that isn't white.

  But the way I studied in school was very, what, what's a normal posture? It's not a, it's not a brown woman's posture. It is a white male posture that we're studying is normal. And that's so unrealistic. It's very easy when you work in healthcare to be very, um, Mistrusting of healthcare professionals because you see exactly who works there and their biases.

  [01:09:26] Importance of advocating for yourself in healthcare

  Surabhi: And I've worked in the hospital system before too. And uh, unfortunately it happens more often than not. And I know we all like to have like blind trust in our healthcare professionals, but here is why self advocating is so crucial. And I'm so glad that you had it in you to advocate for yourself because some people are so scared to speak up, scared to say anything, and they don't wanna be a bother.

  Sophia: And that's what it's,

  Surabhi: that may have killed you, right?

  Sophia: Like, no, And that's exactly what it is that don't wanna be a bother. I think that is so common in how women are told to [01:10:00] behave, right? Like, don't bother people. And like you said, it could mean your life. Like, but, but, and the thing is like, especially if you've gone through childbirth, if you're feeling that anything is feeling off, Just go get it checked.

  And if it's not, if everything's fine, great, but you didn't bother anyone by getting it checked. What you did was ensuring that you will continue to live to then take care of this child that you just delivered, um, and gave birth to. And it's just like you have to listen to your body and you have to advocate in the healthcare system cuz no one else is gonna do it for you.

  In fact, they're gonna tell you you're wrong and they're gonna tell you no, you're fine. And you just have to keep going. You have to listen to yourself and, and fight those systems cuz those systems weren't designed for, for people like you and me.

  Surabhi: And it's a very patriarchal system that "I know better. I'm right, you're, you're less than me so I'm gonna tell you what to do about your own body." And it's like, [01:11:00] no, like this is still my body. I own myself. You are just helping me. That's your job. And in my line of work I really try to remove that cuz even women carry the patriarchy onto our patients.

  We have this hierarchy. And I'm like, No, nobody's better or worse. And I'm like, My clients, they know their bodies the best. So if they're telling me something's wrong, I'm listening. Yeah. And I really encourage anyone who's listening to this, especially if you are in the healthcare system, or if you are a pregnant person or postpartum, please advocate for yourself, even if your doctor hates you.

  I don't wanna be liked, I wanna be alive and well, Right.

  Sophia: That's it. Right? Yeah. You gotta advocate for your life because literally the system is not designed for you. Um, especially

  Surabhi: until it is, until it is you'll be having to continue this, you know, advocacy and speaking up. And I think that's something that I, I got from your talk for, um, steps of pride as well, is like, there's so many layers of you not being seen [01:12:00] for who you are ultimately.

  Yeah. That is very damaging to a person and Absolutely. As an immigrant, I feel that, you know, is people are seeing me as this, you know, Kid with an accent who smells like curry, Right. Versus like, okay, that might be true, but also I'm this, this, and this. Yeah. And, um, it's very damaging when you, when you get it a lot and somebody who's never had it would be like, Oh, so what?

  Just, just correct them? And you're like, No, it's not just that simple. It's not that easy.

  Sophia: It's not right. It's just not. And like, Yeah. No, I think, I think you got that all.

  [01:12:37] Raising kids and the importance of inclusive language

  Surabhi: I wanna know about you as a parent, how do you, um, not how do you raise your kids, but how do you ensure that your kids are best equipped with inclusive language?

  Inclusive? Um, I think just being raised by you would be, you know, would be easy enough. But even still for somebody like I, I'm [01:13:00] in a heterosexual relationship and we talk to our kids about, um, all different ways of being families, but what I notice is that their daycare doesn't. , while they might mention it once or twice, there's still a mummy daddy or like a two parents.

  And I'm like, some people don't have parents. Yeah. They're raised by grandparents or, or other, other members of the family. And I, I know it's gonna happen when there, there's one kid that then enters and I'm like, It, we shouldn't have to wait until we meet that kid. We should just, it should be the default.

  Sophia: That's it, you know? That's it. Yeah. And so what I'm really conscious about with, with my kids is, at first I'm completely honest and transparent with them. I don't hide anything. And also I think what's really important and what people don't recognize is kids, Can understand a lot if you say it to them in kid appropriate terms, They're so good and they're sponges, right?

  They're gonna absorb this information and they're gonna spread this information and they're gonna be like, they're [01:14:00] just wonderful when you actually empower them with information. Um, so this morning is a great example because one of them was saying something about ladies, I don't know, they kept using the term ladies and I was like, you know, I don't really like that term.

  I actually really hate, like, in terms of reference to me, I, I cannot stand the term lady. Um, I actually am, I'm much more closer to changing my pronouns altogether. Like right now, I'm, "she, they," but I think I might move to, "they," I'm becoming more comfortable with that. But you know, I, and I said to my son who's older, I said, Well, why don't I like the term lady?

  He's like, Because you're non-binary. And I'm like, What does that mean? And he's like, Well, you don't really feel like a boy, and you don't feel like a girl. I was like, Exactly. And um, you know, and then my daughter, she's like, Ask me, Ask me. And I was like, Well, how do you feel? She's like, I don't feel like a boy.

  I don't feel like a girl. I'm just Gabrielle . And she's three, right? And I'm like, Yeah, you do You like, you be confident in who [01:15:00] you are. And I think what I, what's really important for me, and I think for other parents is instill the confidence in your children to express themselves as who they are.

  Support them as who they are, but also teach them to support their peers. And then advocate in all the systems possible. So like you said at your daycare, right? Like our daycare celebrates pride, celebrates National Indigenous History Month, celebrates Black History Month. Um, recognizes diversity. I think it's super important, but here's really, really good example of how you can change things so easily.

  If you are a new parent that's applying to a daycare, for example, going on a wait list, there's always a form. The form usually says the mother's name. So it says Mother, and then it says Father, right now, inclusive daycares and, you know, um, childcare provider, uh, places will have parent one, parent two, or you know, one guardian, two.

  Um, and I think when you see a form that [01:16:00] says, mother and father, I think it's really important for you to fill that. And potentially cross out the word father, cross out the word mother and just write parent one and parent two. And I know a lot of people get their arms up as like, Oh, I'm, I'm being, I'm not being seen as a mother anymore.

  There's a whole, and there's the whole turf piece. And like, there's so much, you know, that people feel like are being taken away. But it's not a sum zero game. Like, it's not a, like it's, it's not, nothing's being taken away. What you've done now is made it easier for a family like mine to enter this space.

  Yeah. Because what you've done is made it safe. So when I go to apply for my child, for daycare and I get this form and it says parent one and parent two, I'm like, Oh my God, look, we're being seen, our family structure is being seen. Our family will feel safe here. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And the thing is, there was a, a montes.

  Close by to us. You know, I, when I, we were looking at different places, I did the same thing. I sent the form in [01:17:00] and I, I did that and I said, Have you not had, um, you know, families of different structures? And she was honest. She's like, You know what, no, we haven't, and you're the first one to correct me on this, and I appreciate it.

  And it's also the responsibility of the childcare providers in the same breath to be like, Thanks for this, and then just change it going forward. And that's it. And

  Surabhi: because if they don't, if how they respond, it also is very t telling on what their status is in terms of their level of, um, embracing people who are Yeah.

  Not like them, right? Yeah, exactly. And, um, I had a recent, I, I had signed up for this pelvic health class, um, course. And the, the form, they're like archaic. It's all in like, you gotta fill it out. Pdf. I'm like, there's no online registration. Like what? We're in 2022. But anyways, and it said, um, are you a female or a male?

  Or no, what's your gender? And then it says, Female male. Yeah. And said, Are you, that's, are you? Yeah. And then it said, Are you willing to pair with [01:18:00] somebody of the opposite gender or opposite sex or something? Yeah. And I was like, Okay. But then that's assuming that there's a gender binary. And also what question are you asking here?

  What are you trying to figure out?

  Sophia: That's what it is.

  Surabhi: The question should be, what do you wanna know? You have a vulva or a penis. Right? And are you willing to pair with somebody with a vulva a penis? Just leave it open cuz it's just so unnecessary. Yeah. And, and I said, I emailed back and I said, said that to them.

  I said, um, this is better language. And I'm like, I'm not the expert on this, but this is what I think needs to happen. And the response I got was, Oh yeah, we're aware. We're gonna change it sometime in 2023 when we have an online registration system. And I'm like, This takes two seconds on Microsoft Word.

  I'm like, you're, you're, you have a Microsoft Word document online. This is. I will change it for you, but like, and I'm like, But why is this so hard? Cuz I'm like, you know what? I would see if I was non-binary and I was signing up for this course, I would not sign up.

  Sophia: Yeah. I would say, and that's what, [01:19:00] not for me, that happens to me all the time when I'm filling out forms.

  I think what makes me so angry is they, Are you male, female or other? No, I'm sorry, I'm not an other, I'm still a human being. And also what's so important is to distinguish, like, to distinguish the difference between sex and gender. And then also what do you actually wanna know? Do you wanna know what's in between my legs and what was, or you know, what was assigned at birth?

  Or do you wanna know what is my gender identity? Those two can be ex completely different, right? Do you wanna know if I'm cisgendered or if I'm, you know, non-binary or trans? Like what are you getting at and why do you want this information?

  Surabhi: And that's the why. And because a lot of the times it's unnecessary info.

  For example, for. Um, I was at this conference and I was just thinking about this, and I was like, you know, one of my friends whose transgender said, um, he, they, and none of us had written down our pronouns. And that was like the first day. And I was like, Oh my gosh, we should all be writing down our [01:20:00] pronouns.

  And then somebody else bought up a great point and she's like, But why are we defined by our pronouns at the same time? Because like, shouldn't we all just treat each other as human beings? Because we were also in a very inclusive space. And I'm like, That's a really great point. We were out for lunch at the time, and the server who was like 20 was like, Hey, girls.

  And I'm like, Excuse me. And my friend said, We're not girls. And he's like, Oh, hey ladies. And we're like, That's not any better, because you cannot assume that because we all are sitting and we may look like ladies, that we all want to be called ladies. I, I am a woman. I don't wanna be called ladies because I feel like it's also very, ugh. You know? That's,

  Sophia: Yeah. I hate that term. I hate it. So

  Surabhi: hey ladies. And I'm like, Can you not just not, you know, like,

  Sophia: just say, hey,

  Surabhi: just say hey.

  Sophia: Just say hey. Like, that's it. It doesn't need any more than that.

  Surabhi: Yeah. And I, I think some people are very unwilling to change that because that's all they've known is one way.

  [01:20:56] Toxic male culture

  Surabhi: And I think we'll get there. I, I [01:21:00] know that there's more of us changing our, and not even changing, but like, um, accepting more inclusive language, more practices, more inclusive practices. Like, for example, there's a holiday called Rakhi. I don't know if you know Rakhi.

  Sophia: Yeah, I know Rakhi. Yeah. Where you tie your brother and sister, like it's, Yeah.

  Surabhi: The sister ties, uh, thread on the brother's wrist and the brother then gives the sister a gift or money. Yeah. And it's very like, Okay, but what if you don't have two siblings of like a, a boy and a girl? Yeah. Uh, or what if it's like, who cares? Right? Like, Yeah. Yeah. And so over the years I'm just like, All right, we'll, We'll honour our day together as siblings, but like, it doesn't have to be this big, like, patriarchal thing either.

  Yeah, yeah. Um, and some people are so sensitive about, Oh, that's our tradition. I'm like, Yes. And. You can celebrate it and you can make it a bit better.

  Sophia: But that's, Yeah. And those types of traditions can, can and should be changed because if we think back to any of these types of traditions, it also feeds into the toxic male culture, right?

  Like in that [01:22:00] scenario, the brother is meant to protect the sister. But why, why is, does he have to be the protector? Why can't she be the protector? Why all scenarios when, what if the sister's the older one too, right? It's like, absolutely. But why is all the pressure on men to be the stronger, physically stronger the, the protectors?

  Like they're not allowed to be emotional human beings. Like, they're just seen as these protectors who have to go and work and do certain things while these women child, you know, rear and need protection. We're fragile. You know, women are fragile, fragile being fragile that, that need protection. It's like, and

  Surabhi: you're like, Dude, we like, we grow babies.

  We're like, we are like the least fragile of people. But yes, I, I agree. I loved, I love this conversation and I feel like we hit so many important. Themes of, um, acceptance and seeing people for who they are. And I always think it's better to ask if you don't know than assume. Um, and even with, you know, I'm just thinking about my own practices, like [01:23:00] how can I make it better?

  Because it's not about feeling ashamed or like, Oh, I, I screwed up. It's about then do better. Right, Exactly. Uh, and I think we all like, like your midwives, like the nurses who were in the hospital that night, they could all do better. Yeah, absolutely. Because they met you and they, they hopefully learned from that experience to not dismiss, you know, people who are coming in with, with these very real life, life threatening concerns.

  [01:23:26] What allyship means

  Sophia: And that's what it is, right? Like I think the biggest piece is. Like you, you get this information and you do something with it, right? Like that, you absorb it and then you make change. And I think the only way to evolve, um, is to actually change and to listen to what needs to be done. And for, for me and for my family structure, I rely heavily on allyship.

  And allyship isn't just sitting next to me and be like, Yeah, great. I I come to pride. No, it's actually, when you see those forms, you make, you demand change for those forms. When you see [01:24:00] anything happening in your school systems, you see any form of home homophobia showing up. You see your, you hear your kid saying anything, you intervene.

  You make a point to make sure that your kid isn't the bully on that playground. Um, who's making my. Feel the way they feel, maybe because they have a different family structure. But it's not just my family structure, right? It's any family structure. So many is different from the, the quote unquote, typical or normal.

  Surabhi: Um, even, even parents with um, or single, single parents families absolutely probably feel that pressure too. That there's this assumption that you must have the father or the mother or the another parent. Yeah. Um, and I also think it's important just,

  Sophia: Sorry. Imagine just being that child who constantly has to correct people.

  Like, no, I only, I have a mom. No, I have two moms. No, I like, it's exhausting for the kid as wells, right? And like as adults, we don't like being asked the same question over and over again. So why are we gonna tell, like, do it to our kids?

  Surabhi: And I think it, it also wears down on them or becomes more of [01:25:00] their identity Yeah.

  Than it needs to be. Like your identity. Like I often think my identity doesn't have to be the things that make me different, but it has become that because of how many times it's been pointed out. Yeah. Right. Yeah. My identity could be something else. Maybe I'm an artist or maybe I'm, you know, something else.

  But it has become all of the things that have made me different. And luckily I'm at the point where I'm embracing that for the longest time, I pushed that away. Yeah. And as kids, we can't expect them to, um, withstand the traumas, the microtrauma, the macro traumas of all of these questions asked nonstop.

  Yeah. We need to do better for our kids so that they can also do better for their peers and themselves. Yeah. Um, so thank you for bringing that up.

  [01:25:39] Final Thoughts with Sophia

  Surabhi: I have some final questions for you that are about you. We've talked about you, but these are more about you. Yeah. Um, because I wanna know everything there is to know about Sophia

  Okay. What's a book or podcast that has been life changing for you?

  Sophia: Um, I will say the most memorable and definitely life changing, uh, was 1619. [01:26:00] It's a New York Times podcast, um, by Nicole Hannah Jones. Um, who is, uh, I. I wanna say a journalist, I think for, for New York Times, who basically, uh, talks through, um, enslavement of a Africans of coming to the US and how that shaped the, you know, what became America.

  But the history and the way she tells the stories are incredible. I've never been so captivated by a podcast and by, like, I've never like been so moved by it as well, and so moved to do more mm-hmm. , um, because she gives you so much truth, um, in such a, in a way that's just like, holy, whoa, I didn't know all of this happened historically.

  And it's very powerful and I encourage anyone who has time, um, to listen to it. It, it's really, really well.

  Surabhi: Thank you. I've never heard of that, So I'll put it on my list. Yeah. Cause I, I do love, I, I love listening to and reading things like [01:27:00] that are factual, but also based on like, things that affect us still now.

  Sophia: Right? Yeah. And her voice. Oh, her, She has such an incredible podcast voice. Like, I could listen to her story, tell all the time. Nice. Mm-hmm. .

  Surabhi: Um, so what are three things that you like to do for yourself every day?

  Sophia: Yeah, this is a hard one. Um, I mean, make my morning coffee. Need it. Uh, I like putting on my robe at the end of the day.

  Like, you know, like after my shower I switch into my robe. I just love it. I don't know why. Um, but I just do. And it's this robe that I've had since university, so like 20 years. It's a fleece robe.

  Surabhi: I'm picturing something kind of cozy, but a little ratty still. Yeah. It's been around for so long.

  Sophia: Yeah. So long. And I can't get rid of it. I've gotten other ones, but I just, I don't, And, um, Uh, I think those are just the two things I think that are really part of my practice and routine.

  Surabhi: Nice. Yeah. I, [01:28:00] I think we all have our rituals or things we do that kind of bring us comfort, make us feel, feel better.

  Yeah. Um, and it's nice to, I think, be intentional about it. So that, I mean, your coffee, you're not gonna skip out on, but maybe if you're having a rough day, you're like, Oh, that's something that I could do. Yeah. Um, and we all have, we all have that. So I always like learning about that.

  So what are you passionate, really passionate about right now?

  Sophia: Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm super passionate about, Breaking down systems. Like I, you know, I am really, like, I think for my kids, for all kids growing up right now, right? The systems that we've grown up in, I don't want them to grow up in those systems, right? Like the barriers that exist. I wanna break those all down.

  And so that's why, you know, from a career perspective, I've been doing this work for this as in, you know, diversity, equity, and inclusion work for about six, six years formally, but about 10 years. And formally, um, is really just to continue to advocate for change, [01:29:00] advocate for, for, you know, equity deserving groups.

  Um, so that I can run myself out of a job. Like my whole vision is that I don't have this job anymore, and no one does, like, it doesn't exist because it's just interwoven and that people who, like everyone has an equitable chance to.

  Surabhi: And I think that kind of brings me to my next question is if you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

  Sophia: That's it right there. That, that, if you know, I, No, you know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna change that. I mean, it is part of that, but I think one of the biggest pieces is in healthcare, and I think because of my personal experiences, but I've seen so many countless racialized people go through this, is that, that racialized women, I will say, are seen as valued human beings in the healthcare system that they're taking seriously and that they matter in the system, that their lives matter.

  Um, that's, yeah, that's truly what I [01:30:00] would wanna see changed.

  Surabhi: I wanna see that changed too. Yeah. We deserve it. Not even deserve, we are owed that absolutely basic human privilege of being human.

  Sophia: It's a human right. Right.

  Surabhi: It's human right. Yeah. Um, and what do you think is your mom's strength?

  Sophia: I like to think that it's my ability to be open and transparent with my kids, um, you know, and, and try to answer, like, I, I try to unlearn a lot of what I've learned while raising my kids.

  Um, Because he, my son the other day had asked me about what's overweight or something around weight. And I was like, Okay, okay, this is my opportunity to do something different because, you know, my mom would've just answered, or my parents would've answered in any way that wouldn't be okay to say right now.

  Yeah. And whereas I was like, Well, you know, it's, it's not about being overweight, It's, you know, it's about, I started talking about [01:31:00] how like your organs or your insides feel good or don't feel so good. It doesn't matter the size of your body on the outside, it just matters how you're feeling on the inside.

  Like, are you feeling like, yeah, if you wanted to get up and run, could you do that? Or would you feel like not so great about, you know, maybe you feel out of breath more than you want to. And so trying to explain that because I also realized like my importance of raising a young man in society and what do I wanna impart on him and how do I want him to see women see men, like see other people.

  Just see other humans and treat other humans, and I don't want him to look at large bodies any differently from small bodies. And so it's like, I, so yeah, that's what it is, is really unlearning. Um, and being conscious of that and then just being open and transparent with, with my kids,

  Surabhi: I can relate to so much of that, you know?

  Yeah. My, I remember once I was changing and my daugther pointed to my belly and said, You're fat. And like the initial response probably that I would've had [01:32:00] 10 years ago would've been like, I'm not fat. Like, what are you talking about? This is just, you know, kind of a defensive approach. And I, I just said, Yep, I have fat and I just moved on because I don't want her to link the, the word fat or, or having fat as something that mommy gets upset about.

  And that's a bad taboo thing. Yeah. There are people, and I, you know, we talk about it all the time. So there are people in larger bodies, there are people in smaller bodies. I had made this offhand comment about my son. I was like, Oh my gosh. I'm like, He doesn't even have a butt because he's so tiny. He's a just a thin kid.

  He was like, I was as a kid, to be honest. We, we were the same, same frame, tiny. And now and then I heard her repeat, Oh my God, he doesn't even have a butt, like literally in the same tone that I did. And I, I was like, Oh my gosh, you got that from me? And she said it yesterday and I said, Remember, we don't say that, Uh, we don't make judgments on other people's bodies.

  [01:32:49] Repairing relationships and apologizing to kids

  Surabhi: And like, remember that was something that mommy said that wasn't right. And she's like, I learned you from you. And I'm like, Okay, like one mistake. This is what happens. But it really [01:33:00] forces you to be on your toes as as a parent. Yeah. Because we wanna do better for ourselves and our kids. So,

  Sophia: But what I love in what you just said was also just acknowledging and telling our kids that we're not.

  Yeah, right. Oh, yeah. Because our parents never did that. Like, when did we ever hear an apology ever? Whereas I'm so focused on repair work, um, at the end of the night or wherever throughout the day. Right. Repair, repair, repair. Like, oh yeah. You know what, I messed up. Yeah. I yelled. I was having a really hard time, like really letting them in that I'm human.

  I have emotions I might mess up, but I'm really trying really hard and I'm sorry. And how can I make this better? Um, and I think that's really important in, in, in, you know, raising kids.

  Surabhi: I think so too, at leads to more empathetic kids, but also I think they'll feel, hopefully they'll feel more loved. Cause Yeah.

  How, how nice would it have been to have an apology, right? Oh, when our parents, Just an acknowledgement that they weren't right. That they hurt you. And that, you know, it just, it [01:34:00] it's repair is so important. And, um, you have so many mom strengths. I can just see it now. .

  Sophia: , thank you.

  Surabhi: Thank you so much for sharing your time with me, with us, with the, with the audience.

  , we are all so grateful for your presence and for your insights and for sharing your story. , where can people connect with you?

  Sophia: Thank you for asking, and thanks so much for inviting me here today. I really, really appreciate it. It's been such a great conversation and it's been, Thank you for creating this space, um, for letting me vulner, letting me be vulnerable and emotional, and, and it's been a great conversation.

  Um, you can find me at s on Instagram at sd.apper it's supposed to be s der but someone took that, So I had, I had to put a, I had to put, put the.in. Yeah. your, Yeah, I had to put a.in, so it's. D No. Yeah. sd.app. A P p e r. Uh, yeah, that's my Instagram handle. Awesome. I'll share that, uh, with the show notes as well.

  So if people wanna connect with you, [01:35:00] they can. If you're listening and you enjoyed this podcast, please share it and tag us. Let us know your thoughts. Um, share it with somebody who needs to hear it, because there are people in your life who need to hear this, probably everybody in your life. But really, you know, if you're, if you're listening to this, you're like, Oh, this person really would benefit from this conversation, please share it with them.

  Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, and have a fantastic rest of your day