73. Perinatal Mental Health with Divya Kumar
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Triggers, racial trauma, intergenerational healing and parenting as a South Asian woman in the west!
Surabhi Veitch chats with Divya Kumar, an Asian-American licensed psychotherapist. Divya specializes in perinatal mental health, trauma, and the life transitions related to pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting. Surabhi and Divya discuss parenting and the challenges of being a South Asian parent within Western society. Join the conversation as Divya explains how to manage your triggers when it comes to parenting and explores how race and culture impacts parenting.
We discuss:
Forming Identity as an Immigrant
Sacrifice as a Parent
Intergenerational Healing
Strategies for Self Awareness
Dealing With Your Own Trauma & Triggers
Living in a White World
Cultural Appropriation
South Asian Food
The Namesake
Today’s episode is sponsored by Embodia https://www.embodiaapp.com/ - use code momstrength to save $20 off your first month’s Tier 3 membership. Learn more about How I use Embodia as a Pelvic Physiotherapist!
Bio for Divya Kumar, psychotherapist:
Divya Kumar, LICSW, PMH-C is a South Asian-American psychotherapist with a public health background who specializes in perinatal mental health, trauma, and the life transitions related to pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting. She is especially passionate about holding space for folks of color and folks who identify as first- and second-generation immigrants as they navigate the transition to parenthood and explore how race, racial identity, and culture intersect with parenting.
Connect with Divya & Important Links:
—Follow Divya on Instagram @bothbrownandtherapist
—Work with Divya: www.divyakumarlicsw.com
Connect with Surabhi:
Website: https://www.thepassionatephysio.ca
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Surabhi: [00:01:37] Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mom Strength. This is your host Surabhi Veitch, and I'm really excited to have on Divya Kumar today. She is a perinatal mental health therapist. So let me do her official bio and then we're gonna welcome her on. So Divya Kumar is a South Asian American psychotherapist with a public health background.
Who specializes in perina perinatal mental health trauma and the life transitions related to pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting. She's especially PA passionate about holding space for folks of color and folks who identify as first and second generation immigrants as they navigate the transition to parenthood and explore how race, racial identity, and culture intersect with parenting.
Hi Divya I'm so excited to have you on here today.
Divya: It's so great to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Surabhi: Um, as I just. Connect with you, read more about you. I'm just like, this is who I, someone like me needs as an immigrant myself, raising biracial kids, trying to figure it all [00:02:37] out. Culture, race, parenting, um, often without the best, uh, I don't wanna say the best, but often without the examples that maybe we needed because our parents were raised in a different time, different generation, different culture.
So why don't you tell me a little bit about, , your work in, in mental health. Sure.
Divya: Yes. And that story resonates with me, right? That's, that's kind of my story and how I sort of tumbled into this work. , so yeah,
Forming Identity as an Immigrant
Divya: I grew up in Connecticut. My parents are immigrants from India. Um, my dad came in 1965.
My mom came in 1971. Um, And, uh, you know, child of Indian immigrants in white, suburban Connecticut, super preppy, super like white suburban jock, like this eighties, right? So like collars and like Mercedes and everything. Um, and you, it was just, I was just so other all the time, experienced so much racial trauma and just took such a long time figuring out who I was as a brown person and.
[00:03:37] Just really like ran away from pieces of my identity for so long and I was like, well, if Brown is bad, and everyone's gonna say like nasty, horrible shit and just make all these comments from the like, Very racist to all the microaggressions, you know? And you know how it is. Like if we had a dime for every time someone yeah's like, where are you from?
No, where are you from? I'm like, I'm on from the freaking moon. Anyway, we'd be rich. Yeah. And we'd be in Hawaii. Not to say we don't love our jobs, but anyway. It took me a long time to figure out, um, who I wanted to be as a brown woman and what that identity was. And part, a big piece of that was when I became a parent.
My husband is white. We've been together since we were 20 years old, and we had these two children. They're teenagers. And when I became a parent I was like, Wait a minute. There's this part of my identity that I've just really run away from, um, because of fear and because of trauma and because of experiencing racial trauma.
And I was like, how do I want to raise these multiracial children and give them a sense [00:04:37] of an Indian identity? And then of course the next question is, well, what is my Indian identity? What does that mean mean? Yeah. What does it mean to be desi? And I'm not like, I'm, I don't know, I hate to say typical desi, but I, I often like fought against a lot of the stereotypes.
I was like, I hate math. My mother is a doctor. No, I don't wanna be a doctor. Yeah. You know, you know, married a white man was very sort of untraditional and like, the aunties love me, but they're like, oh yes she is. She is her own person. You know, they'll say things like that, which I'm like, yes. But also that it is also a way of saying like, oh, she's kind of doing her own thing.
Yeah. Um, and you know, in this unprecedented way, like I remember being in college and seeing the science for like, you know, they see like South Asian student, whatever, and I was like, I don't want that. I don't wanna be around these people. And then suddenly when I became a parent, I would see these brown like desi looking moms at the playground and I would be like,
hi.
Hi.
I, and I sort of want, I was like, oh, do you guys do anything for Diwali like, what? [00:05:37] Do you wanna do something? Do you wanna light some thes? And I was like, oh, I should learn how to make this halwa that my mom used to make. How did she do that? Yes. And so this is part of this reckoning and I, and where it ties with, um, the professional piece is like, I have two children.
I'm a survivor, two times survivor of postpartum depression, anxiety, and O C D. So I. Wrestled really mightily with a perinatal mental health stuff. And I realized that in the mess when I was like really in the shit with it. I felt so much shame and a lot of that shame came from this. Like, gosh, my parents struggled so much that I could have everything.
Mm. Yeah. And I have everything. I have this wonderful husband who loves me so much, these two beautiful, healthy, wonderful children. I have a house. We are not struggling in that way, but I am struggling. And I was like, oh, well fuck. Like something is really wrong with me and I have done my parents wrong.
Like this is. I'm really not good enough. They sacrificed, you know? [00:06:37] Definitely, like I definitely heard that narrative of like, we came here with nothing. So you could have everything, so you should be grateful. Yes. And and so part of this journey has been figuring out what role did culture and race play into my experience of perinatal mental health and through a whole bunch of twists and turns, , I did public health and I wound up, wound up running new parent support groups and doing all this postpartum support work.
Um, and I just noticed that the perinatal field was really white. Yes. And I would go to conferences and I'd be like, oh, there's like a handful of black and brown faces. We're like, Hey, what's up? sis Like friends. Yeah. Um, and so one of the reasons why I ended up going to school was so that I could be a brown therapist so I could sit with the children of immigrants and be like, I get it.
Yeah. Like what did we learn about parenting? Like who taught us about what it means to be a mother or a good mother? What does it mean to show love? What does it mean to struggle? Like what is this normalization and glorification of struggle and sacrifice, man. Yeah. And so yeah, that's, that's what I do.
Surabhi: And you [00:07:37] know, while you're speaking, even though I was born in India and like I moved to Canada when I was 10, but I, I sit in this in between like, am I Canadian? Am I Indian? You know, am I, what was my identity? I totally resonate with the fact that it wasn't until I became a mom that I truly was like, wait a second.
I'm, I'm here wanting to pass on my culture to my kids, but I need to be more. And like, I need to understand my culture first. I need to understand who I am first. And so that was when I started really focusing on celebrating my culture, reconnecting with it again, and in a way that felt good to me, right?
Mm-hmm. So, I, I, I deeply everything you're saying, I'm like, wow. Yes. And I remember, uh, being referred to therapy cuz I had postpartum anxiety after my first, and Oh, I'm sorry. You know, I was just like, So much of the anxiety isn't just the typical mom stuff, it's also the race, it's also the culture, it's also the interracial marriage.
There's so many aspects that I feel like are often missed when [00:08:37] you're seeing a white therapist who maybe is not trained and not aware that these, these things even matter, right? So I'm so grateful that there, uh, are people like you in this, in this field. So tell me a little bit about how do race and culture impact parenting?
Divya: Oh my gosh. So many ways, right? Like there are just, I'm like, okay, buckle up. How much time do we have? Um, I think, you know, one of the things that I think about so much is like, how do we show love? Like what is the demonstration of love? And I'm sure we've all seen that meme that like they see Mom is not gonna say, I love you.
She's gonna say, did you
Surabhi: eat? Exactly. I was like, I I'm just thinking love is food. Right? Like my, for my mom, Love means making food for us, asking if I've eaten right. Um,
Divya: yeah. Right. I do.
Sacrifice as a Parent
Divya: For you, I am like it's, it is the normalization, the service.
Surabhi: Yeah. It's the
Divya: glorification of not just service, it's sacrifice.
Yes. And with this element of suffering, right? Like [00:09:37] I don't exist. I do four. Our culture is really relational, right? Like we are, we define ourselves in relation to our families. Like, I'm so-and-so's daughter, I am a mother, I am a wife, I am a, you know, I'm, I don't have siblings. But you know, it's just this, like, we are in relation to each other.
And so, so much of parenting is figuring out like, how do I, what do I wanna do for my children? How do I wanna love them? And how also do I wanna preserve myself? Mm. And we don't. We don't know anything about that. Right. And I am always so ready to like rush out of the house, like get somebody, pick somebody up, make somebody special food, even when I'm tired.
And now the kids are older and they call me on it all the time and they're like, do you want this? We got Chinese takeout the other day and my older one loves pork and Chad dumplings. And he's like, do you want this dumpling? And I was like, no, no, no, you have it. And he's like, do you want the dumpling or not?
And I'm like, [00:10:37] no. You and I I did this. No, you have it. Which is like, I look like an auntie, right? Yeah. I'm like, you have it.
Surabhi: Yeah. It's like I can just picture my mom saying that. And the funny thing is, my brother and I would call my mom out on it too. I remember one year we bought her, um, new shoes for Mother's Day or, or birthday or something.
They were si half size too small. She didn't tell us she forced her feet. Oh. We could have easily just exchanged it. Right. Right. Like, no problem. But she was like, oh my gosh, my kids bought me a gift. And we were like adults at this time. Right. So it wasn't like we were babies. Right. And she wouldn't tell us.
And I found out months later that she's been forcing her sore feet into these shoes because we bought her these shoes. And so, oh my. It's this type of like, sacrifice, you know, not asking for what you want, being okay not being, not ever being first that, you know, many of us have absorbed from our months.
Right. And our, and the women in our
Divya: family, Oh, totally. And like this whole thing of like, we eat last, you know? Yes. Like I'm feeding everybody. It's just like this, the, I mean, there's big things, which I'll say [00:11:37] in a second, but like, some of it is just like really basic everyday shit. Like who gets the big piece of chicken?
Yes. Like I'll never take it. I will give it to my kids and my husband. Yes. And I, it's been a lot of like, Unlearning and relearning cuz they're like, wait a minute, do you really want it or not? And they've called me on it now. They're like, we don't know whether you mean it or you don't mean it. And like, that doesn't, right.
They almost said like, it doesn't feel good. And I was like, yes, uhoh. And I was like, look, this is, and I, I'm a huge fan of like the micro narrating, like why I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm like, this is how I was raised and it's part of my culture and I can see how it's not super helpful. So I'm gonna try to do better.
And I would like this dumpling. Would you like it? You know, we can have a negotiation about it. Whereas my husband, who is wonderful, of course, he's like, I'll, I'll eat the dumpling.
Surabhi: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Cuz he, they don't think twice about it because it's never, first of all, they're men and then they're also like white men.
So it's, it's not in the culture to. Put others [00:12:37] first. Right? Sounds bad, but it's kind of true. But it's what they, they learned. It's what they learned. I remember, I remember the same, same types of conversations. It's like we'd have leftovers and he'd be like, oh, do you still want some? And I'm like, yeah, I wanna keep it for my lunch tomorrow.
Right? Like in my head. But I would be like, no, no, you eat it. And then there would be no lunch the next day and I'd be like, going to work and not have, like, it's the, it's the simple stuff. So I'm glad you're talking about that because so many people think it's the big things only, but it's all these little behaviors that we learn and then we start to embody ourselves when we become parents.
Divya: Well, right. And like the other example, like the day-to-day things like last year, two children, you know, two different places needed to be picked up at the same time. Some pickup fell through. One child here, one child there, uh, needs to be picked at the same time. And I was like, oh my God. I'm like, frantically being like, can you get my kid, da, da da da.
My husband's like, well, someone will just wait, they'll just wait for 10 minutes. I'm like, Uh, she can't wait. She will have it swim practice and she has wet hair and it's cold, like wet hair. Indian mom, like [00:13:37] I'm every type now.
Surabhi: Yeah. But he was like,
Divya: just don't turn yourself into a pretzel. Like the child can take a hit here.
They're not six. Like she was like 12 at the time was 13 something. It's fine. And I was like, I'll turn myself into a pretzel so the child isn't waiting in the cold.
Surabhi: Yes.
Divya: And it's like, and, and I think that like we just don't, we don't know how to protect ourselves in that way. And you know how it is like shit is exhausting, we mm-hmm.
And we don't do ourselves favors. We didn't learn how to, Protect ourselves
Surabhi: for ourselves. Protect ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Like
Divya: we're not, we're probably not eating all the things that we should. We're like, no, no, no. You have, oh, I guess I will, I'll, I'll do everything without saying like, no, I can't get you either.
Wait until I can get an Uber. Take the bus.
Surabhi: Yeah. Here are the options. Yeah. And I think that it actually, um, doesn't serve our kids in the future because when we do everything for them, They don't learn those skills themselves. And then many of us, we become 18, 19, we go off to [00:14:37] college and then we're like suddenly left to figure it all out because nobody, like, people have just been doing it for us the entire time.
So it doesn't teach us those skills either. So it's like, obviously it's beneficial for us if we, you know, start. Seeing what we need, but it's also helpful for our kids. So, you know, it's both. And that example with the food, so many of the, um, the clients that work with, they don't eat fruit. And I was not eating fruit.
I save all the good fruit for my kids. Yeah. All the berries, all the strawberries. I'm like, ah, I'll eat an apple banana. You eat the berries. Right. And cuz they love it. Right. And they, they'll eat the whole thing. But it's like, no, no, I deserve fruit. If anyone needs antioxidants, it's the people who are aging.
Right. Right.
Divya: But it's all But the point that, that point is so important of like how do we show, and this is the thing, like how do we show the children that we are humans and not robots? Mm-hmm. Yes. And we don't exist to serve them. Yeah. Um, and we do in some ways, but it's not like, how do we find this balance?
And that I think is like the really tricky thing [00:15:37] that I think many people. Are trying to figure out and like, yeah, along the same lines we do tend to like fix it, fix it. Cuz that's often what was modeled for us because absolutely ain't nobody in a, they see family talking about feelings like, no, no. What is the ever loving fuck is that like, no.
Right. And so like I still do this when my kid's like, ah, you know, I need to figure this thing out. Even yesterday he texted me about some scheduling conflict and mom blah. And he clearly is like distressed. And so I, and the most important part of parenting, right, it's co-regulation, is that we can't,
Surabhi: can't match their energy when they're
stressed.
Yeah.
Divya: And like do, as I say, not as I do. I'm like girls learning big time here.
Surabhi: I'm, I'm learning too cuz it is, it is a practice every day. Literally
Divya: every day. And how do we, we be like, okay, I see this is, and to like name the feeling like, oh man, I'm sorry, this is so frustrating. I'm sorry, this is so annoying.
Like that you have to deal with this. [00:16:37] And not jumped in this like, okay, do this, do that.
Surabhi: I will solve your, yeah.
Divya: And you know, I had to be like, okay. I'm like, I was like, ger, you know, emoji is like, sorry, blah. Like WTF annoying. And then what? How can I help? Um, cause so much of that, that was, that's another big piece of culture, right?
That like, Um, you know, just because our parents often were a product of their own intergenerational trauma. Yes. So many people in the diaspora, in, in different generations. War, forced migration, partition, yes. Any religious persecution, all kinds of stuff. And none, nobody ever, nobody's grandparents ever talked about that.
And everyone's just like,
Surabhi: just buried it away. Yeah.
Divya: And like you see your parents get distressed and nobody names what's going on. Nobody talks about it. Kids often have to like be like, whoa, what's happening? Nobody's talking about it. And they absorb all of that cuz nobody's saying like, I got upset because X.
Yeah. [00:17:37] This is what happened for me when I get upset, it's not your responsibility. I'm gonna figure out how to manage my stuff and no matter what, I love you. I'm always here for you. That never happens. Yes, that never happened for us. Never. So we have to learn how to do that for our kids. Yeah. No models, right?
Surabhi: Which no models. Yeah. And, and I will say that like, that's something that we definitely see in our culture, but I feel like that's cross-cultural in our parents generation because cuz so, for so long I had thought. Being brown was a problem. Having brown parents was the problem. But now that I'm married to somebody who isn't brown, I'm like, whoa, whoa.
Hold up. There's a lot of problems in white families. In all families. Yes, and there's a lot of good in the way I was raised. That I'm so grateful for because if I hadn't learned those things, the culture here, the Canadian culture would not have taught that to me. Yeah. Because the culture here is, you know, that colonist mentality, me, me, me, me, me.
And so there's that balance of like, what is the good from our [00:18:37] culture that we can take away? And then what is the stuff that we're like, uh, I wanna change this. And that's the hard part I find is, It's wasn't modeled in any way, right? Like there's no perfect model that we can go off of. We are literally creating the path for ourselves.
Divya: Yes. And that is, like, I, I often tell clients, I'm like, don't bush whack alone like that. That is what I do like for most of the time. Like there isn't a path. Yes. Um, and so much of what we're doing is you're exactly like a hundred percent like. There are some things that are so lovely, like all the duty to family stuff.
Sometimes it sucks, but like sometimes it's wonderful. Um, absolutely. You know, and like the connection and, you know, just the, just all of the family stuff is really lovely. Yeah. And, um, how do we, how do we reflect on what we were raised with and take the pieces and really look at it And it's like you got a big old, like messy ass person.
You have to like, dump it all out on the table and be like, okay. What do [00:19:37] we have here? What do I wanna hold onto? What is this?
Surabhi: I love that analogy,
Divya: but it's, it's like, it's like it's the stuff we carry with us, right? Yes. And like Yes. And just, and it's like so many dimensions of like from like what do we do with food?
Because, I don't know, I keep talking about food and I swear it's not just cuz I'm busy, but we eat all day long
Surabhi: like we do. Yeah. You have to interact with food.
Divya: Yeah. Um, there are like various triggers. I always say like, parenting is, is really triggering, right. It is. Like, it is. Yeah. Right. Like, like all like the hornet's nest that's like kind of over here.
Yeah. Like it gets kind of, and everything comes out and if anybody has issues with food, like it's gonna happen. We gotta feed the kids all the time.
Surabhi: Yeah.
Intergenerational Healing
Surabhi: And you know, these are things you can't anticipate until you have kids. I had no idea when I was pregnant that I would even, it's like this whole bag was sealed.
I. Shut, and suddenly like the zipper starts, like, you know, using that personality, it starts opening and you're like, all this stuff starts coming up, and you're like, I didn't know that [00:20:37] I was even upset about this. I didn't even know I had trauma from this situation, because nothing's triggering it until it does.
Until your children are screaming or until something about how they respond reminds you of yourself. And for me, it's been like, oh, when I reacted like that, I had no compassion. I was given no compassion. And now I have to respond with compassion so that my child doesn't grow up feeling the same way I did.
A hundred percent my big feelings. Right,
Divya: right, right. And like when they hold up the mirror and you're like, oh, oh shit. And like you're tired and you just pushed out a baby. Or like you had major abdominal surgery or,
Surabhi: yeah.
Divya: Yeah. And like the thing that I think is so important to remember when we do this parenting thing is that not only are we realizing like, oh, when I had this behavior or this reaction, I was not met with the compassion that I'm trying to give my child.
So not only are you learning how to do the thing in the way, it was never done for you. But you're also like [00:21:37] grieving and mourning a loss of what you should have had and didn't.
Surabhi: Yes. Which is sad because you feel like, wow, what, like, what did I miss? How much did I miss because I didn't receive what I needed?
And it's, it's both. You're so right. It's like this process of like grieving and healing and knowing that, you know, we're doing better for our kids and hopefully moving that. That cycle forward and breaking some of those patterns that we grew up with. Right. Um, but yeah. Wow. I, I have friends who are, don't have kids, and they're like, shouldn't we have kids?
Should we, should we not? And I'm like, listen, it is a big responsibility and you have to do what's best for you. But it is hard. It is triggering, but it also brings so much healing and joy in a way that you cannot, in a way that I don't think I would've had if I wasn't a parent. Do you know what I mean?
Divya: Totally. A hundred percent. Like every time, and I say this all the time, I'm like, every time we talk about the hard things and we dump the purse out and like [00:22:37] sort through everything and you know like, oh, this is really triggering. How do I wanna parent differently? Oh, I never got this. Let me look at this and like process this loss that is intergenerational healing.
Yes. That's what that is. And sometimes it happens in like mundane things where a child's like, I don't like this food. And like, I hate bandy. Like I cannot eat it. Like I and some people are like, I love it. I'm like, no and never give it to me again. And like I know I have, as an adult I learned I have oral sensory issues cuz cancer, ah, and when my kids has it and I learned, he was like, and he could finally say like, this food is really slimy and slimy, I don't like it.
And I was like, And if you can say that child like, okay, yeah, so that's fine. This food feels weird in our mouths. Like it's important to eat vegetables. How would you like your vegetables cooked? Yeah. He likes like broccoli, like vegetables, like roasted, like salt and pepper. Like garlic powder. Like chili powder.
Yeah, but
Surabhi: not the like slimy. Yeah. Yeah. And that's fair. And I think that we. [00:23:37] It's the same thing when I was a kid. I was always thin and small, so I was always told, eat more, eat more. And I'm like, I'm done. Like I, I wanna respect my body, but like, I didn't have that language, but you're being forced to eat more.
So I started hating food. I started resenting food because I. When we moved to Canada, the principal said, I'm really small, so he's like, I, I was ahead of grade in India, so he's like, she should stay in her age grade here. So I have to repeat grade five because I was really small. Apparently I was still small in grade six.
Trust me, I didn't, I didn't grow that much. I'm just, I was just short, you know? And. But I had in internalized this message that my body's a problem, which means I need to eat more. But then the food here I hated cuz I'm, I'm used to eating delicious Indian food. And then that was made fun of when I went to school.
So now I'm eating cheese sandwiches, which is like, so boring. And I'm vegetarian, so there's like minimal options for sandwiches, right? And then I started hating food. And so now that I have kids, It's so easy for me. I don't care if they're picky, cuz I remember that [00:24:37] trauma. Yes. And I'm like, you, you, it's, it's all good.
I have no stress about food, which I know a lot of parents have because of, you know, maybe they didn't have the same experience that I did, but I remember feeling like, fine, I just hate food because I'm being forced all the time to eat it. Oh, oh yeah. It's awful. And I don't think parents realize that when they're forcing their kids, that could happen, you know?
Oh yeah. And it's, it wasn't even like eating disorder, like, I wanna be thin. It was just like, I don't want food because it's always a problem. It's always, you know, relating back to my body being a problem somehow. And, um, it's hard. It's hard now as a parent because that, that, that stuff, you know, I share because I've learned a lesson from how I was parented and I'm like, I know not to do that to my kids.
Right. But then some things you just react in the same way. Like, my dad reacted and I'm like, Ugh, I really did not wanna do that, but Right. How do I learn the behaviors to not do it? And so tell me about your work, because you work, you counsel, um, your clients one-on-one. Yeah.
Strategies for Self Awareness
Surabhi: What are [00:25:37] some strategies people need to work on, um, to help them change those patterns and even be self-aware enough to actually recognize what.
What they, how they feel, and what they need.
Divya: That's such a good question. And I, I often, um, I remind everybody that it's skills, it's, it's work, it's unlearning and relearning. Right. And like you would never tell anybody who'd never run before, okay, go run a marathon like right. First you do, you're like, I'm gonna run for 30 seconds and walk for a minute.
Yes. I'm gonna do that for 10 minutes. I'm gonna do that three times a week. And you build it up. So it's take, it's like itty bitty muscle. Oh, I'd love that. You gotta learn. Yeah, right. We're learning. It's not like you flip a switch and like, well, I'm gonna do it a whole different way. No, you're like 30 whatever years old you've been doing shit for like a certain way.
It's gonna take a minute. But, what I think is really powerful is like being able to cultivate this, this awareness to be able to tune in to. What is happening? Like that example, right? Like if you, with food, if you react a certain way [00:26:37] and it just kind of, something happens to our brains and bodies and someone like pushes the button and it's like a trigger wire.
It gets tripped. Whoop, something comes out like you react in a certain way. , if we can practice being able to observe that and being like, oh, that thing happened. Shoot. Okay. And to really practice, like when your child does a certain thing or says a certain thing, or even yesterday, this example of the kid being like, mom, I'm like, distress.
I'm getting distressed and activated. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh, I'm getting activated. Mm. I noticed my distress. And we often externalize the thing like, Ooh, distress is showing up. Ooh, anxiety is really loud. Like, it's not like, oh, I'm so anxious. I'm so anxious. But it's happening to me. Yes. And like anxiety is appearing.
Oh, that like low mood is like really dragging me down today. Like name it as an external thing and observe it with that like reaction. Like it's not gonna last a long time. If you can like [00:27:37] hold on and be like, whoa, whoa. I see that reactivity that's like really loud and it's vibrating in my body. What am I gonna do to just take a breath, take a beat, observe it, notice it, and I'm not gonna react from that place.
Like the reaction's. Okay. We're not gonna judge it. It's here showing up for a reason. Yeah, fine. And hold on a second, take some breaths and be like, uhoh, hold on a second. We're not gonna react from that place of distress. Let's wait a minute and like we're okay. What do we wanna do? Okay. Yeah, I see you're really frustrated.
That sucks, man. What can I do to help? , and it's like the slow training of like, yeah, I see that happening and I'm not gonna respond from that place. And if you do, if you do get mad or you do, like, you should be thankful for your food, whatever, whatever thing you say. The most wonderful thing about parenting is it's an ongoing thing and it's based on rupture and repair, right?
If you mess it up or you don't do it right, guess [00:28:37] what? You're a human and not a fucking robot. Be like, Hey, you know what? The thing that I said the other day or at lunchtime or whatever, like, you know, I reacted kind of badly and I wanna try that again. Or like just, you can say, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have spoken that way to you.
Or My reaction was wrong. I'm gonna try to do it differently. Name the thing for the kids. Cuz that was never done for us.
Surabhi: Yes. And guess what? I've started doing that on my kid, my older one, we'll call it out now. She's like, you need to apologize because you yelled. And I'm like, yes, yes, you're right. And it's. Really lovely because she recognizes that she doesn't deserve to be yelled at.
And we obviously, we tell her that and we don't want to yell, but sometimes it does happen and then you're like, you feel awful about it. But that repair never, literally never happened in my entire life for my parents. So the fact that I can do that for my kids, that we can, you know, do that for our kids, I think is beautiful.
And it also teaches them [00:29:37] that. Like what kind of behavior they deserve. Right. From their friends, from their teachers, from, from their peers. Um, because we learned internalized that if, you know, if people of authority yell at us, that we deserve to be yelled at. Right. That we are bad. That we're bad
Divya: wrong.
Right. Exactly. Right. And the other piece of that, that I think, and we talk about this so much with clients, is that like, So much of it is like, just like bits of psycho ed, right? Of like, this is what attachment is, and like that this is part of the co-regulation of like, Hey, I'm sorry, and that like whatever, like stuff the kid's holding, they can let go of it or like you're like, gimme those hard feelings.
I don't hold them alone. Like that wasn't your fault. I lost my temper. Yeah, and you are showing them how to have feelings. They're learning that their mom sometimes gets mad, sometimes yells, and then apologizes. Yes. And that she loves them no matter what and she makes mistakes and she's gonna keep trying.
Surabhi: Yes. And I think that's, it sounds easy, but it's actually [00:30:37] such hard work and it's for anybody who's like started their journey in therapy or has not even considered it. Like for me, therapy has been so important because without that, I don't think I would have the tools like you described to run a marathon, right?
Yeah. Yeah. The building blocks. Cuz this literally was not taught to us ever. Never modeled. Parenting is a marathon. It's, and it is, it's an ultra marathon. So, you know, you have to learn those skills and I think that's what your work, what you help people develop is those skills to unlearn and then examine themselves, how do they feel, and then respond from a place of, um, you know, calm instead of like reacting all the time, which, I can now see in other parents when they're dysregulated or Yeah.
You know, elevated. And the fact that I can actually recognize that now is, is huge. Cuz before I was so, uh, like blind to all those feelings, [00:31:37] I would not even be able to pinpoint it. Right, right, right. And so tell me, so we've talked about, you know, how race and culture impact, um, parenting and the triggering that can happen.
Can you talk about your kids are older, so they're kind of pre-teen, pre-teens or teens? They're teens, yeah, they're teens. Oh my gosh. I know. It's wild. It's wild. And so you've kind of been through the infant toddler phase, the preschool kind of elementary.
Dealing With Your Own Trauma & Triggers
Surabhi: Can you share some of the, the themes, I guess, in parenting, like the, the common struggles that come up when you're parenting kids?
For me, I'm thinking right off the bat, like handling their big emotions is one. Right. And, um, yeah. What are some other, like, I wouldn't know, I don't have older kids, so I, I, I have no idea what's in, what's in store for me.
Divya: It's, it's like, well, I mean it's, so much of it is like handling your own shit and like handling your own triggers.
Like when they hold up the mirror, like when, you know, [00:32:37] when your kids gets teased in middle school, how do you respond to that child that is not like, You know, that's not just a manifestation of your own trauma. Like so much of it is like managing like the activation of our own trauma and our own triggers.
Like that's like 99% like, but it's like handling the big emotions, which toddlers, it's like a great preview for teens because it's the same thing, like, like small person, like huge emotions like that. And like teens, it's like a whole, like the moods and the. Stuff. I'm like, woo. And I come back to the same thing that we, we see as the toddlers.
Like when the two year old is mad and hitting you, you're like, oh, you can be mad. That's okay. You can't hit me. I will not let you hit. You know, you can like, oh, you can throw the ball, but you can't throw it in the house. Like you validate the feelings, you correct the behavior, right? That's the same, same thing with teens.
I'm like, you can feel whatever way you want, but you cannot be an asshole. Like that is not okay. You [00:33:37] cannot weaponize your shit onto me and your sibling like that. If you're in a bad mood, tell us you're in a bad mood. Tell us you need space. That's fine. It's, it's so much of the like remembering that when kids behave in a certain way, they have an unmet need.
Surabhi: Yes.
Divya: Cause they're humans just like us. Like I'm nasty and cranky when
Surabhi: I am hungry. When I hungry I was just Yeah. Hungry. Sleepy. Yeah. Yeah.
Divya: Overstimulated, like when I don't have a break. Um, and so, so much of it is interpreting, you know, like, you know, noticing that you're doing X and y. That's okay. Is do you have a need?
Do you need a break? Do you need a snack? And they're like, I'm fine. I'm like, well, if you're fine, then you need to be fine.
Surabhi: Oh, that's good. Yeah.
Divya: I'm like, don't. Oh, d I will not do this, but words and tone and body have to match. I'm fine. I'm like, okay, well then you need to change your behavior. If you're not fine, then we can fix.
We can deal with it. Deal with the need. Yeah. So much of it is interpreting like the [00:34:37] emotions. Dealing with the emotions, our own distress tolerance, being able to co-regulate, manage our own trauma. And the other thing that I think is huge, a big challenge of parenting, like from. Throughout the stages is being able to understand when to let your child lead and when to kind of give them a little nudge.
Yeah. Um, that I think is such a challenge of parenting. Like when is the, when are you gonna wean the baby? When is the baby gonna learn to use the toilet? When is the baby gonna separate in a certain way? You know, when are you gonna be like, I know that you don't wanna do this activity, but like, You can't just stay home all summer and like lie around like a sloth on your phone.
Like, you're gonna have to do something. Which one do you wanna do? This, this, or this? Yeah. Um, and I, again, to bring it back to race and culture, I think, um, you know, for many of us, we were just never given choices. It was like, you will do this now. Yeah.
Surabhi: It's like we've, yeah. It's like, it's one of one of two things.
Like [00:35:37] the way I, I've, in my experience, it's like you're either babied. When you're old, like even when you're a teenager and you're like, I'm, or in university, you're like treated like a child, like a baby, right? Child. Like you can't do anything on your own. You know? You need your parents to do everything for you, or it's, you're being told this is what you're doing now.
Yes. And so you're like, I don't get choice and I don't get trust. I feel like nobody trusts me to do these things. And you can be the smartest kid in the school, all rounder, like you know, they, and desi kids. They're trying to prove themselves all the time, trying to earn the parents' pride. But the reality is, What I'm recognizing is my parents don't have the skills themselves to recognize those things because they weren't taught and they didn't have the practice, and they didn't have the support, the mental health support and the training and this and the tools.
So I'm expecting things from them that they just cannot offer. And so as a parent now, I get to choose those things from, you know, my kids as, as I raised them. [00:36:37]
Divya: And then, then there's the bush whacking of like, okay, how do I do this? How do I figure this out? Like, yeah, I was raised with this thing, but this just isn't working for me and my kid, but what are these other models?
And you know, I live in this very like precious, snowflake kind of neighborhood where everybody's like crunchy and earthy and we just let the children lead cuz they're magical. I'm like, I gotta go to work. Step on the gas. You know? I'm like, sometimes there's
Surabhi: you have, you need that balance cuz you can't just be like, all right.
We're just, yeah, cuz I feel like kids also need to know that they have an adult who they can trust and they're not like trying to lead the way and they're like, three, right.
Divya: No, you need boundaries and structure and No, like there's, there's definitely like, I definitely see people, I'm like, oh no, like you need to tell them no.
Like it's okay. And they're like, well I don't wanna hurt their feelings. I'm like, no, no, no. That's part of parenting. You can tell them no. And like again, like. They might not like it and it might not feel good for you. And And this is like the both and Yes. [00:37:37] Parenting so much both and right? Yes. Like, and it can be hard and also right, and like, oh yeah, our parents, they did the best they could.
We can be grateful for all of they what they did and also be sad at what we didn't get. Like that is a lot of what we do in therapy Holding. The both,
Surabhi: yeah, both. Both truths and understanding to kind of accept where we are now. Right. Um, it's, it's so interesting because for me, I. That's been a lot of my journey over the past five years and it's, I will say for anyone listening, like it makes a difference because I am a totally different parent than I was a year ago.
Yeah. And I know that each year that passes, hopefully, knock on wood, I will be a better parent, know my kids better, know myself better. Mm-hmm. And there's like that. Wisdom that comes as you get older too. You start recognizing that like, anyways, it's easier to recognize what matters. Yeah. What is a [00:38:37] priority and what is just like, this is not important.
No, no point stressing about it. Like a clean home. I would love to have that every day, but let's just. Not realistic for the point of parenting we're at. And we have a toddler who literally will take things apart the second we put it back together. So we just have to recognize that this is where it is.
That's why I'm laughing when you said, this is a preview of teenagers and I'm just like, woo, this kid as a teen. And I'm, I'm excited for that. Cause it'll be interesting.
Divya: Oh yeah. I mean it's just, and it's amazing to watch them become themselves. Right. And that's, that's a beautiful thing to sort of like, Open the door and be like, yes you can.
You're interested in this thing, great. Go do it. Um, go, go be who you are. Um, and that like, I think, um, you know, my husband is, is really, really good at like a good counterweight. I think that's been really helpful for me and my parenting journey. And I often say this, you know, many of my clients are newly postpartum and often they complain about their partner being like, oh, My partner doesn't do it right, and they're not doing it right, [00:39:37] and I'm kind of like, they're doing it differently.
It's not necessarily wrong, right or wrong. It's like for kids to have different models of Yes. How to approach different situations, how to problem solve. There's no right one right way to do things.
Surabhi: It's true. And I feel like we have to recognize that we each, like, I have many weaknesses, but I also have many strengths and like, build off your strengths and teach your kids from that.
Right. And um, yeah, I, I see that, or people are trying to figure it all out when their babies are like six months. I'm like, this is just the beginning. Like, give yourself time. I like, I think you're always gonna be figuring it out. I talked to my mom, right? Like obviously her kids are like grownups and she's still saying I still learn stuff all the time, you know?
And. Because now she's able to, now she's like done her parenting journey in the sense that like we're grown up and out of her house and whatnot. So she can, she can now reflect back and she has that ability now cuz she's not working two jobs and like exhausted and you know, in the thick of it, she can now reflect back and say, oh yeah, I wish I did.[00:40:37]
Do things differently at this time, which is really healing for me because we we're able to have this type of adult conversation, and I can't do that with my dad. And I recognize that people have their different, um, capacities to handle these types of conversations. So it's really wild when we're right in the thick of it.
Yes. And so I wanna talk about, um, we, we talked about some of the cultural narratives and can you talk about, um, there was something Oh, yes.
Living in a White World
Surabhi: You talked about your mom's food, how people used to make fun of your mom's food and how your house smelled Ken. I am like, yep. I was so embarrassed I would not invite friends over.
Yeah. And everyone's like, I've heard Indian food's great. And I'm like, I'm too embarrassed to have you over cuz you're gonna make fun of my food smell cuz you'd make fun of my clothes, make fun of all this stuff. So I learned very early on when I moved here to be embarrassed about my culture. Oh yeah.
And you grew up here or you know, in the us So how was that?
Divya: Oh God, yeah. It, it's so wild. The punchline of the [00:41:37] story is that my very white husband, like makes more Indian food than I do and makes those up from scratch. And
Surabhi: like, not same as my husband, same literally. He's a better Indian than I am
Divya: total.
And, and like my parents still say that, um, but you know, my dad will be like, He's Indian. You're not really Indian. I'm like, ok. And of course my husband will eat pany and eat bi and eat all the things. I'm like, I don't like that. And my husband's like, I'll eat anything. Like give me a char, give me every, whatever.
It's fine. Yeah. But no, when I was growing, I grew up in, in Connecticut, and I did have friends who would come over and like nearly all of them would say, eh, eh, what is this now, you know? And, um, you know, my mom was obsessed with, uh, closing, closing up the kitchen. Like it would be almost like her medically sealed with like all of the fans.
And she, whenever we would come in and out, she'd be like, close the door, close the door. We're cooking. You can't have the house smell. Mm-hmm. Um, my mother was a doctor and she was like, you, I cannot go to the hospital smelling like food because people will look at you. I can't smell like this food. Um, and it was so everyone was, Ew, ew, ew.
[00:42:37] And I was always allowed to have. Stouffers frozen french bread pizzas or craft mac and cheese in the blue box. When my friends came over and that when, when I would have a sleepover, so we would sit at the table and my parents would eat with their hands. They'd be like, you know, I hope it's okay that we eat with our hands.
And you know, like ex, excuse me, like, I'm sorry if you think this is gross. This is how we eat. And we would get our french bread pizza or we'd get our craft mac and cheese and um, I remember when I was in high school, I had a friend, I went to boarding school actually, so I wasn't home all the time. And I had a friend come and visit me over a vacation.
And, um, I remember we were same deal sitting at the kitchen table and my mom had some dol and she had sandbar and she had some chicken. Delicious. We grew up eating. Yeah. And um, and my friend, like when I was a kid, it was like, Ew, what is that? And like, then this high school friend was like, what? What is that?
And my mom was like, this is doll. Her eyes [00:43:37] light up with spinach. Would you like some? It's very nice if you put some yogurt on it. Come get the yogurt. Give it to them. You know? And they were like, oh, it's really good. And she, and she just, and like from there on, it was a completely different experience.
And you know, I'd have college friends come over, somebody who's like, high. In the middle of the night, they're like opening the kitchen. They're eating the Indian food cold from the CorningWare dish. And my mother would be like, you have to heat it up. You can't eat it cold. And they'd be like, this is really good.
And, and it's just amazing how now.
Cultural Appropriation
Divya: Everyone's like, oh, golden milk. And I'm like, it's so healthy. Leave you. I
Surabhi: know. Like
Divya: this. That's like the stuff that is so, you know, we always had like gee in the little, um, that little stainless,
Surabhi: like stainless steel jar thing or you know, stain with the little thing with the litted and the spoon.
Yeah, yeah. I'm like,
Divya: I can't describe it. I can see it in my mind, like exactly how it was. Yeah. And just like the things that we grew up with that people thought were [00:44:37] disgusting. Now you know that it's all, it's
Surabhi: cool. It's trendy. Yeah.
Divya: It's expensive and And expensive. Yeah. It's really, and I'm like, bone broth.
And I'm like, yeah. My mom used to go and like get like beef bones from the butcher when somebody was sick and she would make broth in the bones cuz she was like, there's bone marrow nutrients in here. It's really good for you. And everyone's like, oh yes, I'm having my bone broth and my golden milk. I'm like, And it's just frustrating.
I'm like, great, that's fine. And, and you know, sometimes I'll complain about it and sometimes the older generation's like, oh, look at this. Everybody's doing yoga, it's so good. I'm like, yeah, right, fine. Um, but like if, and, and they're like, oh, look at our culture. It's becoming more mainstream. People are appreciating it.
And yes, I get that. That's lovely. And also like, it's
Surabhi: just we're being erased from it, right? So when people drink turmeric milk, they don't even recognize that it's Indian, right? So I remember I was at my old work when I worked in a clinic and I was sick or like getting over cold and my boss was like, oh, you should go down to the [00:45:37] aroma.
They have a turmeric um, latte that's really good for you. You know, it's turmeric has, I'm like, excuse me. You, you do not have to tell me about the benefits of tur. And you know, of course, of course they say turmeric, like as a tumor. I'm like, there's an R, it's turmeric. Like even that what used to piss me off and it's like, it's great that they're doing yoga.
It's great that they're drinking, you know, the doing the Ayurvedic benefits of all the foods and everything. But we are being erased from those, those things. And that's the problem, right? That's the problem
Divya: when some white lady's telling me how to pronounce something. Some in some asana. And I'm like, just, I can't, I can't be here.
I can't, I can't be there. No, I, I cannot, cannot do yoga with white people anymore, ever again. Yeah. Yes. This is gonna go on the internet. Somebody's gonna say some nasty shit to me, but I'm just so done
Surabhi: because, no, I had somebody actually on talking about who, she teaches yoga and she's, um, a Indian background from the states, and she said the same thing is, you know, white women don't [00:46:37] understand how harmful it is.
When they teach yoga because they're so unaware of the harm that they're causing. Right. And I always say if to my white friends, I'm like, you can learn, you can practice, but why are you teaching? You do not have the skills to teach. Even after taking a 200, 300 hour course, this takes years of being seeped in the culture to learn.
You know, I always give the example of like, you can bounce a basketball, but that doesn't mean you're playing basketball. Right. It's, no, it's, it's like you're, you're practicing a part of it and I feel like. That story of, you know, in high school your friends started to be interested in your food. That happened to me probably in university.
Hmm. In high school. I still was kind of like, Hmm. Not having friends over Yeah. And stuff. But then suddenly Indian food was cool and my white friends would be like, Surabhi how come you never, you know, to invited us to your place? And I'm like, how come you never asked also, right? Yeah. You never. You knew you had an Indian friend but you didn't care to try Indian food.
Right. It's, it goes both ways. And to anybody who's listening, who's still [00:47:37] in that, I, because a lot of my followers are in that journey as well, where they're rediscovering their culture. Yes. And there's nothing as healing. It is just eating your food openly, eating with your hands, if that's what you wanna do.
And just like teaching our kids that, that's normal,
Divya: right. How you break a piece of the roti off you like. You don't make the burrito, you like break the pieces. Oh my gosh. Poop. Yeah. And you know, and like, yes, you have to put your dye in like with your food a little bit and like you have to, it's just there, it's culture is absolutely healing to like, imagine like breaking the piece of the chappa and, and ooh, I just stuck myself in the face and like, doing this and like eating your food.
You know, that's like, that's home. Right.
Surabhi: And, and my, my kids do it right. They've learned it and they do it and it's just like so beautiful to see. And. And I think that's, that's the, all the magic of our culture that I think when we're, that we forget that I forgot about because I was so focused on all the bad things about my culture that I hated learning from my parents.
Like the, the yelling as soon as I do something, you [00:48:37] know, make a mistake. Yeah. The perfectionism and a lot of that pressure from them is just because, yeah. That's also that colonial mindset. You have to perform other to stand out to get your opportunities otherwise, right? If you don't do well in school, then then what?
There's, they come from a highly competitive country because there's so many people and they have to compete for a few spots at this university or this college, or this school or this job. So as I'm getting older, I really empathize with them more and absolutely it's that both and I empathize with them and.
I'm like, but I wish I didn't have that. You know, I grieve the grieve, the younger version of me that didn't have that empathy myself. So I love I love that you're talking about all this. Um, and I,
South Asian Food
Surabhi: I had to laugh because, so for those of you listening, I had Divya fill out this little form, you know, just her bio and her, you know, thing.
And she, she talked about how people buy artisanal ghee for $20. And I literally died laughing cuz I. It's true. They,
Divya: yeah. And we just had it in like a big [00:49:37] thing and we, this is like back in, you know, I, I'm 46, uh, and so back in the eighties there wasn't a Patel Brothers in the town where I grew up in. And we, we used to buy the Indian groceries in Jackson Heights in Queens.
We used to go to the Ganache Temple, go to Doza Hut, you know, with two Ts next door, and then we'd go to the Indian stores in Jackson Heights. And so we'd have the big thing of ghee and you'd have that like, It was a big thing when the store started selling, um, how do you say it in English? Cilantro, like, now I'm like in with you.
And I'm like thinking not the English words. Um, and my mother's like, oh, PAC Mark is selling gut. And I was like, okay. That's great, but it was such a big deal. Um, yes. To us then and now it's just sort of everywhere. Commonplace.
Surabhi: Yeah. When you live in a city especially, right? You just don't even think twice.
And No, I always like to remind people, like for me, food is important and like the history of the food. Even, even non-Indian food, right? I wanna understand where this food is from and what you know. Right? And I think that connects you to the [00:50:37] people too, and gives you a better understanding of them. And I really think that like the amount of patience my mom has to cook those meals cuz you know, Indian food takes time to cook.
It's not, it's not a quick thing. Grew. I, I'm not a good cook.
Divya: I grew up like, you know, having to chop the vegetables and like cut the beans and, um, you know, and, and my mom died nearly exactly two years ago. And so, so much of, of, and like the, the piece of raising multiracial kids too is that like, when people die, stop die.
It's gone. You know? Yes. And I do, like, I, I definitely like, and my mother used to always say like, you better learn how to do this. So, cause one day I'm gonna be dead and gone and who's gonna do this? And now I'm like, oh fuck. You're like, she was right. Damnit, the lady was right about so many things, but like, you know, and she has this like book where she wrote all the recipes.
It's like, cut onions. And I'd be like, how many onions? She's like, you need to know how many onions, you can put onions. Um, but it's all, she's always like, it's labor intensive to cut. You have to watch. You can't just put it in the oven and walk away. And it's, it's, it's true.
Surabhi: Yeah. It is true. [00:51:37] And that's something that, um, I told myself, I'm like, I'm gonna learn like one of her recipes every month.
Yeah. As I, as I say that, I'm like, I need to start, because, because you're right. Not, uh, she writes down her recipes for me too, but it's, it's never Right. Like she's like One teaspoon. I'm like, what do you mean by teaspoon? Cuz I'm taking out the measuring device and for her it's the spoon that she has.
Divya: Right. My mother's was green and stained with healthy. Of course, as was everything.
Surabhi: As was everything. Um, okay. So tell me, I have a few questions for you. Yes.
The Namesake
Surabhi: Tell me about, um, a book podcast that you love listening to, that you read that has changed your perspective or that you love.
Divya: , the book, I think my first experience with the like, holy shit, my mind was blown by a book, was actually reading the namesake a million years ago.
I read that on my honeymoon in 2004 and, it was, it really, it was, it [00:52:37] really spoke to my experience, as a child of immigrants. In relationships with white people and navigating the two worlds of like not knowing that you don't put cheese on fish or not knowing like the certain ways that white people do things or Americans do things, and how like, My family was just always gonna operate differently.
And if somebody gave my parents like a jar of random jams, they would definitely sit in the corner of the pantry forever. Nobody would ever use them. Um, that book I found to be just, uh, for the first time somebody kind of mirrored my experience. Your stories. Yeah. And you should read Cal Pen's autobiography cuz he talks about when he read that book.
Mm-hmm. Um, and how he was like, oh my gosh, if this is a movie, like, I really wanna be in this movie. And it's, it's really cool reading his, um, perception of that story. Um, yeah. I recommend
Surabhi: that, oh, I haven't read either, so I will put those on my list. Um, amazing. And do you listen to podcasts?
Divya: I, I often joke that, um, I am a podcast, a moderately podcast [00:53:37] illiterate person, and I listen to the podcast that my clients send me.
Cause often they're like, I'm listening to this podcast. You have to listen to it. I'm like, okay. Um, I, I recently, a client sent me, uh, the link to truth be told, uh, a bunch of episodes about using psychedelics like microdosing of psychedelics to heal racial trauma.
Surabhi: Um, sort. I've heard of this more. Yes.
Divya: I was riveted and I had mentioned to you earlier, I recently had covid and I was like slowly starting to like take walks again.
And I was listening to these podcasts and I was like, wow, this is really interesting. Just, black people growing up just experiencing terrible, racial trauma and all sorts of trauma and just, yeah. Really holding it in their bodies. Like just holding it. Yes. Holding it. An
Surabhi: intergenerational trauma that just is lives in your body.
Yeah.
Divya: Hands down. And then like being able to like cry and release through the use of psychedelics. And it was really interesting and I would like to learn more.
Surabhi: I would like to learn more about that too. I've just recently hear, heard about it. I. I was listening to Gabo [00:54:37] Mate's podcast, Uhhuh, um, about his new book, the Myth of Normal, and he was talking about he has this, um, and one of my friends was like, I wanna go on this.
He has a retreat where it's like, yes, therapy and microdosing and like this, this experience essentially that is like, yeah, I was like, that sounds interesting, but. Yeah, I feel like there could be more, more news about that in the future. Yes.
Self Care
Surabhi: Tell me about three things you do for yourself every day for whether you call it self-care or just for yourself.
Um, what are some small habits that you, you partake in?
Divya: Um, This is such a good question. One of them is that I need to move my body. I have to move my body speaking of all the regulation, like girlfriend has to move. So I do something every day, whether it's some sort of walking or cardio or I love strength training cuz I'm like that amazing.
Yes. Pick things up and put them down. I like lifting heavy things. Um, so that is one thing. Another thing is that I am lucky enough that I often have this little chunk of time. Sometimes it's [00:55:37] 15 minutes, sometimes it's longer. Between when the children leave the house and when I have to start working. Yes.
Um, and so I will sit and have my coffee then, and I have really pretty. Coffee mugs that I've bought at local craft fairs. I'm the stereotype of myself. That's totally cool. Fine. But there's these beautiful ceramic coffee mugs, and I sit and I have this delicious coffee that I make at home, and it's like this wonderful treat, and I give myself life every day again in this coffee mug.
Surabhi: Well, and it's also that transition, right? Like Yes. Instead of going kids work like go, go, go. You're giving yourself that pause to like reorient round yourself. And I love that. You know what? That's. I'm gonna steal that idea. I don't drink coffee that much, but like I do chai or even just like having a hot beverage of any kind.
I think that's a beautiful way to start the day. And 15 minutes is doable. It's not like, oh, you need three hours, right? No, no. You need to pause.
Divya: Yeah. Something is, and even with exercise, right? Like, and you know this as like, as a therapist, [00:56:37] like something is better than nothing. Like, yes, you can walk for 10 minutes.
Great. That's, that's enough. Yeah. Um, and the third thing is I love Spelling Bee, the New York Times Spelling Bee game. It makes me very happy and often I sit with my coffee and I do spelling Bee. It's so much better than wordle um, words. It's out there Spelling Bee better than Wordle. I don't,
Surabhi: I don't know what spelling Bee is.
Um,
Divya: oh, okay. It is, um, in the New York Times, there's a game section with a crossword and whatever, and it's a game where every day they give you seven letters, um, including, and, and you have to make words. Out of these seven letters and you have to use the one letter that's in the middle of this sort of like, it looks like a honeycomb kind of thing.
Surabhi: Okay. Like, like something. Gotcha, gotcha. Um,
Divya: and so you try to make as many words as possible, and it's this like meditative thing that I can come back to in between clients or if I'm like, you know, waiting, like cooking dinner, I'll like have the computer open and you try to find the pangram, which is the word that uses all the letters.
And it just, [00:57:37] just makes me happy.
Surabhi: And it's also good for your brain.
Divya: Yes. And paired with coffee. It's a nice way to start the day.
Surabhi: Um, amazing. Okay, so tell me something that you are really passionate about right now. Um,
Divya: I've, like, this whole time I've been talking about stuff that I'm just like, ah, I'm so jazzed about all this.
Something that, um, so right now I'm actually reading the book, the Trauma of Caste. I don't know if you've heard of, heard of it.
Surabhi: I've heard of the book, but I haven't read it.
Divya: I highly recommend this book, and it has really opened my eyes to caste apartheid and dalit writes, um, and, you know, doing what we can to dismantle caste to abolish it.
, the woman who writes the book, she's, uh, a dalit feminist activist. Then Morrie Sun, I believe is her last name. And it is absolutely profound and, and just mind and sort of body opening. [00:58:37] And I, if anybody's listening to this, please go read this book. Um, because she does such a beautiful job linking the.
dalit rights to the Black Lives Matter movement, to the Me Too feminist movement and just connecting, uh, disenfranchised, marginalized folks. Um, from different,
Surabhi: yeah. Cause there's so many common threads. And it's the same systems, right? The same systems are causing these, these traumas and victim like basically, um, Even.
Even for myself growing up in India, there's so much we didn't learn, right? Yes, we learned about a bunch of world history, but then conveniently we did learn about how we also are part of the oppressive system when it comes to caste or when it comes to,
Divya: and it's still happening. It's not just something that happened a long time ago.
I was raised of like, castes is stupid. Like why do people care about this same,
Surabhi: well, I didn't, I didn't know castes still existed and then I'm finding out what Right. But we're, we're sheltered from the truth. And that reminds me of how sometimes white people have no idea that racism exists, cuz they, I don't think they're shelter.
Yeah. Cuz they don't, [00:59:37] they're not, they don't think they're part of the problem. And it's the same with caste, right? So we're all, we can all do something about it. So I love that. Thank you for recommending that book. Absolutely. Um, tell me, if you could change one thing about the world, what would you change?
Divya: Violence. Uh, I mean, I, there there's just so much violence. Uh, look at all, we're all this product of intergenerational trauma. When when I read that question, when you sent it to me ahead of time, I'm like, uh, I mean also literally the earth is fucking burning. But it really, to me, it's violence, uh, violence against each other, against the planet, uh, against, against ourselves.
Can we please get rid of it?
Surabhi: Yeah. Uh, that's, I would, I 100% agree. Um, and then
Divya's Mom Strength
Surabhi: what would you say is your biggest mom strength?
Divya: Love this question. I am just very authentically myself and I try to be honest. Yeah. Um, with clients, with my children, with people in my life. I'm like, can we just say the hard things and talk about what's really going on?
Because. [01:00:37] I think when we do that, we break down stigma. We let go of shame, like shame exists cuz shit lies in silence like in our bodies. And if we can just be like, Hey, this is something that's hard for me, can we talk about it? , that's how we heal. So I think that I am able to talk about things and I wanna talk about the hard things, and I wanna hear and, uh, create relationships that are based on authentic authenticity and honesty.
Surabhi: Uh, I think that's, yeah, having, I value that too because it's like the deep, authentic, honest conversations are.
