47. Self-acceptance, healing and antiracism as a single mother with Selam Debs

Written By Surabhi Veitch

Listen & Subscribe on: Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Spotify

Join Surabhi Veitch as she sits down with the extraordinary Selam Debs - a beacon of strength, healing and grace - for a heart-to-heart conversation about her personal journey as a Black single mother navigating the complexities of raising a Black son in a white supremacist society. Selam opens up about the struggles she faced, the power of owning her story and her journey towards healing. Together, we delve into the impact of adultification of Black children, the harm of white supremacy culture on body image and parenting, and the necessary pain and joys of waking up to the truth. We explore the transformative power of motherhood and how it has shaped Selam's healing journey and her unwavering commitment to creating a better world for future generations.

We discuss:

  • Selam growing up, from Ethiopia to so-called Canada

  • Moving to Kitchener-Waterloo and facing racism

  • Having her son at 21 was the greatest blessing

  • Facing stereotypes as a young, Black single mother

  • Selam’s journey to healing

  • Raising her son to feel proud of his culture while surrounded by white supremacy

  • Her Black son being targeted by teachers from a young age

  • Stop adultifying Black children - see them as the children that they are

  • The violent harm of white tears

  • The transition and transformation in becoming a mother

  • The power in owning every part of your story

  • Body Image and harmful Eurocentric standards based on white supremacy

  • White women co-opting Black features and traits while Black women are dehumanized for the same traits

  • How parenting shifts as your child gets older

  • How insidious white supremacy culture is

  • The necessary pain you have to face when waking up to the truth

  • The joy in Black, brown and Indigenous cultures

  • How white supremacy culture and colonial violence makes people disconnected from humanity

  • Things you need to teach a Black boy as a parent

  • Healing practices and vision for a better future

Selam Debs Bio

Selam is a Black Ethiopian queer woman, an antiracism educator, an anti-oppression coach, a social justice advocate, a student in dismantling anti-Black racism, an accomplice in dismantling anti-Indigenous racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia and an advocate in 2SLGBTQ+ & disability rights through an intersectional lens. She is the founder of her recently closed studio, Juici Yoga, a yoga and meditation instructor, a restorative yoga teacher trainer, a holistic life coach, a reiki master, and a Lululemon Ambassador.

Selam is first and foremost, A MOTHER, a singer and a songwriter, a poet and a practitioner of self-acceptance, self-love, and radical compassion. Selam’s Antiracism work is rooted in the understanding that we must acknowledge and identify the insidiousness of white supremacy before we can dismantle colonial belief systems. The process of undoing, unlearning and re-educating is necessary for white communities to embark on, to support the healing journey for our racialized communities. Selam is also a board member of Project UP, Sexual Assault Support Centre of Waterloo Region (SASCW) and Women's Entrepreneur Centre of Laurier University.

Links/Resources

Connect with Surabhi:

  • [00:00:00] Teaser & Podcast Intro

    Surabhi: [00:01:44] Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mom Strength. I'm Surabhi Veitch, your host, and I am so honored and grateful to bring on Selam Debs to my podcast today. Let me just tell you about Selam. So I've followed her for a while. Like I don't even know how long. I literally started coming on Instagram more two years, two and a half years ago when I was pregnant with my second child and it was the pandemic and everyone was going online.

    That's when I started and I started following and seeking out people who felt in alignment with my values, in alignment with my view in the world. And Selam is a very powerful anti-racism educator, but she's so much more so. Let me tell you a little bit about her. Selam is a Black Ethiopian queer woman, an anti-racism educator, and anti - oppression coach, a social justice advocate, a student in dismantling anti-Black racism, an accomplice in dismantling [00:02:44] anti-Indigenous racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, and an advocate in two-Spirit, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer plus and disability rights through an intersectional lens. Now she's more than that. She's a mother, first and foremost.

    She's a founder of Juici Yoga that is a yoga studio in Waterloo. Uh, and I have a history with Waterloo too, cuz I did my undergraduate degree there, many years ago. So she's also yoga and meditation instructor. A restorative yoga teacher trainer, a holistic life coach, a reiki master, and a Lululemon ambassador.

    I feel like Selam must be like a hundred because I don't know how you fit all of these years of experience and training. Literally, I'm like, holy crap. what am I doing with my life? Um, but yeah, and she sings, you sing in your stories and you have a magical voice and it is healing, hearing you sing.

    And when I hear it, especially in the morning, I'm just like, ah, what a nice way to start the day. I [00:03:44] don't have any singing skills. I did vocal lessons for years. My mom thought I was great. I'm not. So I really do appreciate your singing and sharing that gift with us. You're a songwriter, A poet, a practitioner of self-acceptance, self-love, and radical compassion.

    Um, Selam's anti-racism work is rooted in the understanding that we must acknowledge and identify the insidiousness of white supremacy before we can dismantle colonial belief systems and that white supremacy exists in all of us, not just in white folks. And the process of undoing, unlearning and reeducating is necessary for white communities in particular to embark on, to support the healing journey for our racialized communities.

    Selam is also a board member of project Up. Is that right? Up? Yeah. Up and Sexual Assault Support Center of Waterloo Regent and Women's Entrepreneur Center, Laurier University. So Selam, welcome on to Mom Strength. I'm so honored and grateful to have you here today,

    Selam: Surabhi I'm so happy to be here.

    Thank you for bringing me on. I love [00:04:44] everything you do, so it's, it's so good to be here.

    Surabhi: So tell me a little bit about yourself. You have, I know you have a son. Tell me about your experience into parenting and into the work that you do now. You can start as long ago as you want, maybe when you were born , it's totally free for all.

    [00:05:06] Selam growing up, from Ethiopia to so-called Canada

    Selam: Yeah. I typically start like, yeah, a couple decades ago, and maybe even longer than that. My, my parents are both Ethiopian from Tigray, Ethiopia actually we're from the northern part of Ethiopia, which is currently experiencing, a two year genocide, not televised in, in, the media often. And, my family went from, separately, my parents didn't know each other, but they both moved. It was very typical to move from Ethiopia because of the civil unrest to, Sudan. And then from Sudan, they met and then moved to Amman, Jordan and I was born in Amman Jordan. And then, they came to, [00:05:44] so-called Canada for a better life, you know?

    Mm-hmm. , they came here to create a better life. Um, I was very young when we came here. I was two years old and grew up with my mother, a single mother in Regent Park and in Scarborough, uh, Warden and St. Clair, brap, brap, brap.

    and the Cataraqui for Valley. And, uh, grew up in, in those communities. And, I watched my mom work, two or three jobs, uh, work night shift, um, you know, have to, I had to get to school on my own. I had to figure out everything. Um, grew up very quickly and I watched her work and, you know, really break her back to try to provide for us, for myself. And then my sister who was born when I was nine years old.

    And so, We, uh, my mom then, uh, you know, at a young age, I, survived, um, being molested at the age of nine, and then being put into the child welfare system for a period of time coming back into my family, uh, dynamic. And then, [00:06:44] you know, obviously all of that playing out in all of the ways in which not only systemic racism, like growing up in disinvested communities that are cockroach infested, you know, being a survivor of abuse.

    And then my mom was like, okay, I'm gonna create a better life for my children, so let's move them to Kitchener Waterloo. Uh, that must be, that's gonna, there was a growing Ethiopian and Eritrean community, so let's go there. And that should be a, a much, um, you know, safer place to live. And we lived in the same type of disinvested communities, um, you know, in Polander and Chandler Moat.

    And, um, I, at the age of 16 in high school, I was raped and then experienced. You know, being downstream in terms of academics and didn't get access then to university.

    [00:07:32] Moving to Kitchener-Waterloo and facing racism

    Selam: And so all of this, and, you know, my mom thinking that she was creating this better life for us by coming to KW, um, and really actually was the worst type of racism I ever experienced.

    Kitchener Waterloo is a very [00:07:44] German Mennonite community, a very white community, at least in, you know, Scarborough and Regent Park. You saw a lot of Black and brown people. You were mostly 99% around brown and Black people. So you had that community, right? Yeah. And so, that led me to, finally, you know, trying to navigate all of that, not realizing what had happened to me, you know, and not recognizing the trauma that I had gone through, uh, whether it be police violence and being thrown off of a bus in Ottawa when I was there and handcuffed for no reason. And watching my friend have their knees in his back, whether it be the systemic racism, being downstream, surviving abuse, all of these things.

    [00:08:27] Having her son at 21 was the greatest blessing

    Selam: Um, I finally then at the age of 21, had my son and found out I was pregnant. And, you know, I think for a lot of people, especially in our communities and Ethiopian communities, it was like, shame and how could this happen? But for me, it was [00:08:44] like my greatest blessing. . It really was. I knew intuitively, and that's one thing I think has been my saving grace, is that I've always had a deep connection to spirit.

    And even when all of the things have been happening around me, there's this inner awareness and I knew that it was actually going to transform my life. And so I had this beautiful boy. Um, and this little boy led me to meditation, which led me to yoga, which led me to therapy, which led me to healing work and which really, um, has led me to where I am today.

    And he's 17 years old. Don't be fooled. Don't be fooled

    Surabhi: by . I know. I'm just like, okay. First of all, you experience would make you at a hundred and then your life. Like you look very young, you know? But also, this is one thing that I have been thinking about cuz the people will tell me I look young, but I'm like, that's because your looks is based on whiteness.

    Yeah. But, but if you compare me to other Indian folk, I look my age, [00:09:44] right? It's just when we compare everything to white norms, yeah, you look young or you this or you that, and it's like, but let's just there's no standard. There's no standard. And you know, I wanna step back a little bit and just talk about when you grow up.

    And my parents moved here for "a better life" as well. And we had a great life in India. Yes, there's the pollution and yes there's whatever else, traffic and whatnot. And there's a lot of stress. People in Mumbai, India, they work long days like way, way more than people here, right? And like, because they have to, to survive and there's a lot of competition.

    So there is stress. But they came here thinking there'd be more opportunities and more ease of life and that is the exact opposite of what they've gotten. And a lot of people don't recognize that. They think everyone is here from Black and brown countries because of a war or their refugees or their, like their life back home was awful.

    But like we had. Maids. We had, you know, we had help, we had nannies. Like, there's [00:10:44] none of that here. And my parents were still in their seventies still working, right? Like, they're gonna be working till they're very old because they can't afford not to. Um, and for you growing up in Regent Park, I'm in, I'm from Toronto.

    I went to school around, not in Scarborough, but like border on North York, Scarborough. Um, and when you grow up in a disadvantaged area, like you are forced to grow up quickly. Mm-hmm. , and it's not your fault, right? Like, people have a lot of blame, like, oh, these parents aren't caring for their children.

    They obviously care, but they have to work and they have to pay the bills. And so children are forced to kind of be independent much earlier on. And, um, you know, it's, it's sad and it is happening, so we need to talk about it. And I'm grateful for you for sharing those experiences and moving to KW, like, I know, I know Waterloo is not very, I don't know how it is now in 2022, but like back [00:11:44] when I went to school it was 2004.

    Right. And um, everyone was like, oh, Waterloo is so multicultural. I'm like, what are you talking about? I came from, I came from North York. Waterloo is very white, very, very white. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, and the culture is very white. So I can, I can see how it would've been a huge culture shock moving out of Regent Park to, you know, community that's predominantly white and German and Mennonite and um, being so outta place there.

    Yeah. And racist. Yeah. Like, let's just call it overtly is overtly racist. Yeah. Yeah. And, when you became, um, pregnant with your son, and I love that spiritual connection and like knowing that this was the right decision for you. Did you face a lot of backlash? You mentioned in your community you did, um, you know, there's a lot of shame and stigma.

    How about, you know, just in the outer world, were you working at that point? What were you, what was your life like at that point? Mm-hmm. , because I'm thinking, I'm sorry to interrupt, but my life at 21, I did not know what I was [00:12:44] doing. I'll just tell you.

    Selam: Yeah. And neither did I, I did not know what I was doing, but I think it definitely placed me on a different track and a path, you know?

    And I think my path that I recognized once I had him, something kind of clicked in my brain where I was like, I need to interrupt cycles of trauma. I don't know where it came from or what book I read or what, how it happened, but it was almost like innately yes, I was like, oh, I'm looking at things that I never thought about.

    I never thought about my abuse up until the point my son was born. It was like something ignited in me. And I, you know, had difficult conversations with my mom and I had difficult conversations with people in my life where I started to talk about that because I felt this deep sense of protection for him and also a sense of like empowerment, uh, for myself.

    [00:13:35] Facing stereotypes as a young, Black single mother

    Selam: And, you know, in the world. I was obviously experiencing a lot of, um, Stereotypes. I remember that when I, when I [00:13:44] went for the second week visit, where you go in with, um, you know, they come, you come in with the baby and they check to see everything's okay and all the things. And the nurse, I'll never forget, she said to me, and I think I was just wearing it, was the style at that time was like, you know, those shirts that were kind of, um, they were tight on, on your chest, but then they flowed open.

    Yes. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Cause I didn't have a lot of money. I wasn't buying maternity clothes. I just bought whatever I could , you know. Yeah. Whatever was in style. And I bought it and it worked. So it, you know, covered my belly. And, um, she said, you know, You, you're really going to have to start acting like an adult and like a mother and, uh, stop going to nightclubs and partying and start being a mother and, you know, and grow up.

    And I was like, pardon me?. What? Because I cared for myself because I didn't come out in pajamas a week later. Yeah. But that's part of our culture, you know, part of our Ethiopian culture and part of I think a lot of African, Black, brown, Asian cultures is that we, we do take a [00:14:44] really strong sense of pride in ourselves.

    And so, you know, there was that stereotype that, that maybe I'm even younger than I am, the stereotype that I'm irresponsible, the stereotype that I, you know, don't know how to take care of my child or that I am, you know, incapable, incapable

    Surabhi: or like leaving him to go party. Right? What, and like, uh, you know, for anybody who's had a child, you are in a very vulnerable state, postpartum, like very, I almost think about it like the womb, like I'm not sure what type of birth you had, but like, whether it's a vaginal or Cesarean birth, like you're open and you're healing and your uterus is kind of shrinking and you're in this open, vulnerable state.

    Your baby in the first two months of their life, you know, there's a lot of development. And to hear traumatic words like that is so painful. And I'm sorry that you had that experience because that is, as any nurse person working with pregnant folks, check your bias and not even your bias, your hate, because that is a judgment.

    [00:15:44] It wasn't like she was asking you, oh, are you, what, what's your life like right now? There's no question. And there's just an outward judgment and, um, based on her own presumptions. Um, and that is so far from the truth.

    Selam: Absolutely. And, and I think experiences like that. Yeah. And, you know, overt racist experiences of, you know, being in spaces and people saying really harmful things about my culture or, you know, telling me that I should make sure that I don't date Black men and I should date white men.

    And that white men are safer and you'll have better experience. You know, there was, there was just, there was a lot. And I think when I, when I look back at that time, I learned how to just survive. Yeah. All of the violence and the hate. Yeah. And persevere and build resilience through it. Like you were sharing around growing up in disinvested communities.

    You just learn how to survive it. Yeah. Um, and it wasn't until way, way later in my [00:16:44] life that I started to then peel back another layer, an onion and be like, oof.

    Surabhi: That's a lot like actually processing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like one of the things that I talked to my, with my therapist is like, She asked me when I first started working with her, like, why now?

    Right. And I, I was like, I don't know, I just, you know, I feel like it's, I need this. And she's like, a lot of the times it's cuz you're finally actually in a safe space where you feel ready. And I was like, I didn't even realize that because prior to that I did not feel like I was in a safe, mental or physical space to actually start processing the years of har hurt harm trauma.

    And with a young child, it is hard to then raise that child, especially as a single mom and then also process your own trauma. Like, and, you know, I, um, that is hard.

    [00:17:36] Selam’s journey to healing

    Surabhi: How old were, how old was your son when you started investing more energy and like creating space for that? [00:17:44]

    Selam: Yeah, I think around my son was probably around maybe three or so when I started that process.

    And, you know, my aunt was actually, um, transitioning and she had, was surviving cancer for many years and was now transitioning. And I'll never forget, my cousin reached out to me and he was like, come down to Ottawa, um, we're gonna, you know, surround her with love and, um, we're gonna surround her with meditation and we're gonna do all types of meditation practices to support her.

    And it was the first time I was really introduced to, you know, that type of practice. Mm-hmm. And, and so it was, it, I was introduced to that kind of, you know, introspection or that, you know, space. in a place of sacredness, right? Yeah. Which is why for me, you know, healing practices and activism and yoga, meditation, and prayer and all of these things are so deeply sacred for me.

    And, and why it's, it's frustrating to see it, you know, being co-opted and whitewashed and, um, you know, harmed and, and taken and stolen. [00:18:44] And, um, and so that was my process of starting that, starting that because I grew up actually extremely religious and spiritual, but by choice. It was never forced upon me.

    My parents never said like, oh, you need to go to church. And I really was always seeking at a very, very young age. And so my seeking has always stayed the same. It's just how I'm, you know, the tools that I'm using to, to bring about that awareness, is evolving continuously.

    Surabhi: And I love that it's, um, it kind of reminds me of when my grandmother, passed on and we're Hindu and it was.

    um, in Hinduism, death is normal, right? It's just transitioning to a different state where you're closer to God and you're, um, it's, it's talked about like a normal, normal thing, which it is normal, right? Everyone who is born will some at some point die and it's like a normal transition to the next thing.

    And when she passed away, we were very close. We shared a room together, and, um, [00:19:44] it was the most, I, it sounds weird, but it's the most beautiful ceremony. to kind of send her off. And that was my reintroduction to Hinduism because I had pushed it away for so long, because I, of whiteness, to be honest, it wasn't Christian.

    It wasn't, it was weird. The temple, it was, uh, you know, different culture, different clothes, different rituals. And I pushed it away. And I used to think it was because of my parents forcing it on me that I pushed it away, but they never really forced it on me. They were just hurting that their children weren't invested in what their culture was.

    And they didn't do their own years of therapy to recognize that. And so I think now as an adult, I recognize it. And, um, my grandmother's death has brought me a lot of healing because I've reinvested my time and energy into understanding more of my culture and the yoga and the meditation and the. Staying [00:20:44] present and being, instead of like fighting the truth and what's happening is kind of like being with it. And, um, I love that you've had a similar experience with your, your aunt and,

    um, you know, as, as a mom, as a single mom, a Black single mom raising a Black boy. Can you tell me about what that journey has been like because it can't have, can't have been, couldn't have been easy in Kitchener Waterloo especially.

    Mm-hmm. , were you the only Black family? Were there other Black families around you?

    Selam: Yeah. You know, because we were in disinvested communities. Mm-hmm. , we were around Black and brown people of course. And so we had our own little insulated, you know, community. Um, it was more when you went outside of your community and you know, you're in high school or you're in, uh, and, and as I grew up and was in other spaces and work spaces that I think, you know, I didn't really have my first real, friendship with like a white person until like, um, I would say grade 12 and.

    Kind of like [00:21:44] lingered. And then it was into the work world. And when I was in the work world and, you know, had, had those relationships where you're like engaging and being in a relationship with white folks. But of course we all grew up watching all of the shows and consuming all of the indoctrination of who you should be and who you shouldn't be.

    [00:21:59] Trying to raise her son to feel proud of his culture

    Selam: And so, raising my son, I knew that I wanted to raise him with his culture. I knew I wanted to raise him to love himself. And I thought I was doing a good job at that. I thought that I was like investing all of that in him and pouring that into him. And then I, I'll never forget at the age of four, you know, he came to me and he was like, mommy, I wish you called me Zach instead of Jaleel. Mommy, I wish my hair was straight instead of, Afro or curly. Mommy, I wish my skin was white instead of brown. And I remember just being so like, it, it, it hurt me so deeply.

    Surabhi: That's like a dagger, like that's,

    Selam: yeah. . I was like, how did this happen? Even after I've poured, like he's grown up with his culture, he's grown up [00:22:44] around other Black and brown people.

    But it was because the, the society, like the, the space KW ends, I think in general, where we live Yeah. In the world, we constantly are receiving that messaging. And the messaging is that you're inferior and that the goal is to always, you know, um, is always to emulate, uh, whiteness, right? And whiteness is superior.

    It's more intelligent, it's better, it's cleaner, it's, it's safer, it's, you know, all of the things. And so, um, that led me down a journey where I was like, okay, I, I really have to, you know, be even more of an advocate. And I think through that process, and then him going into school is when it hit me. I was like, oh, these teachers don't all love my child.

    And they are not all going to, they don't all see him in the light that I see him. Yeah. And so I started ex experiencing, I'll never forget, and I think it was in grade one where he had a [00:23:44] teacher who was so incredibly harmful and literally it was grade one and two who treated him like he was this troublemaker, disruptive kid when literally anyone that knows Jaleel from day one, like he is the most kindest, most caring.

    Surabhi: I met him like once at the Trevor Noah show. He gives up a very like calm, like a gentle soul vibe, you know.

    Selam: Yeah, he's an e he's an easy kid. He's a very lovable kid.

    [00:24:10] Her Black son being targetted by teachers from a young age

    Selam: And, and so started this, I started experiencing this thing where he would come home every day and say to me like, mommy, I'm, I, I keep getting told I have to go in the hallway.

    Mommy, I keep getting in trouble. Like I keep, yeah. And so this kept happening and kept happening. And at first I think I inherited a lot of the things that my mom, you know, immigrant parents teach us, which is like, "just be good and don't make, make any mistakes and don't disrupt and everything should be fine."

    Because our parents did that in survival, right? And they were taught to like bow down to educators and see them [00:24:44] as authority. Um, but then I started to realize and other white parents actually said to me like, your son is being targeted. Like because he is Black, like we can sense it, we can see it. And started this journey of finally telling him, I'll never forget.

    I said to him one day, I said, Jaleel, when you go into school tomorrow, Stand up for yourself. And I said, don't be disrespectful. Don't say anything harmful, but stand up for yourself. Because I wanted to teach him that because at this point, she'd really broken his spirit and he stopped Really, he wasn't finding joy in school.

    And so I started there and he went to school the next day and the teacher did, what she always did was, was she said to, he was helping a student, and she said, Jaleel, stop disrupting the class. And he sat down and she said, uh, don't roll your eyes at me. And he was like, Madam, I, I haven't rolled your eyes at me at at you.

    Mind you, this is [00:25:44] French immersion. And that's another conversation. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The racism in, in, in French spaces. Yeah. And, um, he, she said, . She said, yes, you did. And he said, no, I didn't. And she said, yes, you did. So the first time he stood up for himself and she said, he said, no, I didn't, madam. And she said, get in the hallway right now.

    And when he was in the hallway, he was crying and she said to him, why are you crying? Stop crying. Like you should be apologizing to me. She said, for

    Surabhi: as a teacher?

    Selam: Mm-hmm. . And this kind of thing happened and eventually I, I had, I stepped in, uh, right after that and she ended up being moved. Um, because it was a, a pretty, it was many different things that I had to record and get receipts of to finally be able to make my case.

    Yeah. And so stuff like that, you know, was my experience of, of seeing the way the world saw my son as a Black boy and having to advocate for him. And I haven't stopped advocating. He's [00:26:44] 17 years old, he's in grade 12 and it's still happening. .

    Surabhi: And you know, I always thought as an immigrant that it was because I wasn't born here.

    I wasn't seen as like Canadian enough, but like he was born here and still, you know, that, that to me, you know, it's not like, oh, you have an accent or you are different. Like you are literally just being a racist. And does he now, because he's 17, does he remember those early traumas that has happened? Like those early memories of, you know, being shamed in class or being targeted in class?

    [00:27:18] Stop adultifying Black children - see them as the children that they are

    Surabhi: How does he, as a child, because he's still a child, you know, how does he kind of process that?

    Selam: Yeah. And I, and I appreciate you saying that he's still a child and that's, oh, he 17. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, you know, people try to adultify, you know, Black children and they try to treat them as, you know, people will say, oh, he is a strong young man.

    And I'm like, Nope, he's a kid. He's still a kid. Still a kid. He's still a child. Yeah. Um, he still [00:27:44] remembers everything. He, he remembers all of it. He remembers what happened when he was little. Um, even a couple of years ago, right before Covid, we, there was an incident where all of the, um, Black youth were going to this, um, special conference.

    And it was a way to address anti-Black racism, giving them a space where they could feel loved and, you know, feel encouraged and have mentors. And one of the students, non-Black students, wrote a Snapchat saying, um, saying that, great, the Black, you know, youth are gone. Um, hashtag n words are gone. Hashtag epic.

    And, you know, wow. Yeah. So that experience, and I think what I've been trying to support Jaleel in is like recognizing all of the internalized racism because helping him see that, helping him understand the impacts of that. Helping him see that he has a right [00:28:44] to feel upset about it, to feel, you know, hurt by it, to feel grief around it, to feel sadness about it, around not seeing a lot of folks that look like you.

    You don't see a lot of Black, brown, and brown folks. And not, and, and going through a whole lifetime of curriculum and never really seeing yourself.

    Surabhi: Yeah. That's trauma. That is trauma. Yeah. I remember. Um, you know, and that's something that, because I grew up in India, I feel. Like I was eight when I left India.

    I lived in Bahrain in the Middle East till I was 10. But in Bahrain it was Indian curriculum. So I learned like Indian history, but it wasn't just, when you learn in in, when you learn Indian history, you also learn world history. You don't learn just India and like you learn about the British and colonization.

    You learn all that stuff. And granted, there's biases there too. I'm sure. I am sure of that, but I was shocked when I moved here. People didn't know where India was. I was like, the ignorance, I remember in grade 10, grade 11, world history [00:29:44] class. My teacher was Kwa and he was actually really good. I was the smartest kid in the class.

    Mm-hmm. But I played the role of, uh, class clown because then if I was too smart, people wanted to cheat on me and people would get me to do their homework. And so I learned, okay. Play the silly, goofy person and people think I'm not as smart as I am. And then somebody who's making fun of me and he was like, stop it.

    She's getting the highest mark in the class and you're making fun of her. And like he called them out and then we were talking. And so I felt like, okay, this is a safe space.

    [00:30:16] The harm in white tears

    Surabhi: So we were talking about, um, race. Somehow and how the damage of like white, you know, colonization and like the forefathers and stuff.

    Mm-hmm. and my white friend started crying in class saying, um, I just feel like we're always, you know, painted as the, uh, villains and, you know, my grandfather, great-grand, whatever it was. And literally the entire class stopped to focus [00:30:44] on the sad white girls' tears. Mm-hmm. . And I was like, but we still need to learn the history.

    But we didn't talk about it after that day. So they changed the entire lecture, the entire what is learned because there's a hint of a white woman being uncomfortable. And that's when I, and I saw this, this is like somebody I was friends with through class and stuff, and I saw the power of whiteness and white woman tears mm-hmm.

    and how they weaponize it to get what they want and to pacify their feelings and suit their feelings and, you know, . It was harmful to me that day. I, I'll never forget that day because I, I remembered that we were just learning about the harm of colonization in India, in, you know, all over the world really.

    Mm-hmm. . Um, but that conversation didn't matter because one single white person was uncomfortable. Yeah. And you internalized that. Your son has, you know, internalized years of being taught white history, white authors. Um, you know, there was an Afrocentric school in Toronto being, um, suggested and I remember [00:31:44] there was huge uproar.

    Oh, this is segregation again. And I was like, um, but we, they need the space. Because I went to school, I have Black friends and they were constantly targeted. For sure I can say that. Um, sent out, made to do extra laps because like, I remember one of my close friends, she was bullied cuz she was, she's Black, she's actually Black and white, but she identified as more Black.

    Mm-hmm. or, you know, biracial And, um, . She was bullied for her size and she got upset about it. And then she was made to run extra laps in gym class. Right. Not the person who was making the racist remarks. And so growing up as a brown person, seeing all of these injustices, you learn, okay, how do I survive by emulating this?

    And, um, it's, it's everywhere, unfortunately.

    Selam: Yeah. There's no escape of it. And, and the story that you share about the white women's tears, I literally had that experience just [00:32:44] literally yesterday. You know, being in a space and in and, and in a space that's actually supposed to be about, education, um, and supporting children.

    A k a kind of like, you know, parent council spaces or, and, uh, and, and I experienced that the white women cry and then the conversation tries to shut down and then the Black woman speaks up, or the brown woman. Then actually another brown woman spoke up, and we both spoke up in the space and, you know, what turns into this?

    Like, why are you kind of, you know, why are you beating us up kind of thing. Why are you making us feel bad? And everyone gets silence after that, right? And we're the aggressors and we're the angry people and the angry Black woman trope in.

    Surabhi: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and frankly, like I, yeah, I have so much, so much anger around that whole thing.

    Mm-hmm. because it's really, um, we have all been harmed so many times with that same scenario, playing out. Same with me earlier this week with my friend. Um, and, [00:33:44] you know, we need to be able to talk about these things and not be worried about. pacifying white folks feelings cuz if they feel bad, that's cuz they know that they or their ancestors have done something wrong.

    It's not because they're being called out on it, it's because they're forced. They're being forced to face that pain and they need to. But that's on them. That's not on us. We are, we are facing our own pain and our own, uh, traumas. And, you know, you as a mom, single mom processing this. How was that? Did you have any partners?

    Did you have support at that time? Were you with your mom at the time? Like how, what was your support system? .

    Selam: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I've definitely had a very unconventional life over the last, you know, 17 years. I think. First I was with my mom and my sister, and so my mom supported, and then my sister kind of became like a second mom to my son and she helped, with babysitting and she helped on the weekends.

    And I would work creative hours, like, you know, I'll work four to midnight so that I can be with him during the day and. , you'll take care of the family, takes care of [00:34:44] him in the evening, and I'd work weekends. You know, there was all of these things that, um, we would do to kind of work together, um, until he could get into school, until he was that school age.

    Right? And so that was kind of my process. And then eventually I, I did have some partners throughout that process. And, um, I guess I should, you know, probably say that, you know, obviously the biological father walked away. Um, he never came back into, um, he walked away when I was six months pregnant and never came back into my son's life.

    And so we have definitely had a very unconventional, uh, story. And a big part of that has been being in relationships with people that were not the right fit and having to go through, you know, extensive therapy and figuring that out. Cause you see your traumas show up in relation, in romantic relationships and, um,

    Yeah. Which, you know, yeah. All of that leading to, I think becoming an entrepreneur and being like, I need to be able to figure out how to care for my family in a way [00:35:44] where I, I am not going to have to be dependent on, on someone.

    [00:35:48] The transition and transformation in becoming a mother

    Surabhi: Yeah. And you know, what you said about when you became a mom, that's when that like, something clicked, right?

    You're like your mama bear instincts, your like protective instincts. Um, I felt that same transition when I had my daughter four and a half years ago. And that was, her pregnancy was extremely hard for me because I think all the traumas, somehow I think it, I was really nauseous and fatigued and I was, had bleeding and whatnot.

    It forced me to slow down and think, because before that I would just bury myself in every extracurricular activities. Took, had two jobs, so I didn't have to ever think about. What had happened. And that's when I time slowed down, I was forced to sit and be in my body and it was like, I hated it. It was so hard for me.

    But now looking back at what a blessing and gift that time was and is, because if it wasn't for me becoming a mother, I don't [00:36:44] know if I would've had the same desire to change and to like step into myself and like really authentically. Right? Um, and accept, accept our, accept ourselves for who we are instead of trying to push it aside.

    [00:36:58] The power in owning every part of your story

    Selam: I agree. I think I, I grew up like having a lot of insecurities when I was young. Giving away my power, my power being taken from me, like in this kind of cyclical aspect of like, feeling like I always had to change who I was and try to appease people and please people and, you know, all of that. And having my son definitely transformed that and helped me to start to see like who, like if you don't accept all of you Yes.

    Then. Then you are never going to be able to be free. Like if there's parts of you that you need to hide because you're worried that if people find out about them, and that used to be my word, if people really know about my story, like someone, are they gonna love me? Like, will they really truly love me if they know my story?

    [00:37:44] Yeah. Will they judge my, my family dynamic, my son, because, his biological father, you know, walked away when I was six months pregnant. Does that make us less worthy? The, does that make us, you know, the stereotype of, um, you know, a Black family? and I was able to do this kind of transformational switch where I was like, I owned every part of that story.

    I was like, yep, that happened. Yep, that happened. These things happen to me and they have, I wouldn't wish them upon anybody, but they are a part of who I am, and I'm not ashamed of them anymore. I, I really feel like they have changed the trajectory of my life and, and allowed me to be more empathetic in the world and do the work that I do now in a really transformational way.

    Surabhi: And what you just said about like that shame part because that shame was never yours to hold anyway. Mm-hmm. , like that's other people's shame to hold, but we internalize it as we did something wrong when we didn't. [00:38:44] Right. And I've been going through the same journey myself as like, if we can't accept, and you know what it was, it was my daughter, she's um, She's got a gift of seeing people for who they are.

    Like she from my son doesn't have it, daughter does. I, I don't wanna, you know, maybe my son does, but like she will look at you and see you for who you are. And so when she was born, she like, our eyes connected and I felt naked. Like, I felt like, wow. Like she is seeing just me for me and accepting me for who I am and nobody else.

    Even my parents have never done that. Hmm. Because when I was born, they had expectations from the second I was born. My daughter had no expectations of me. And so that type of love and that type of like, Just looking at myself through her eyes and how she can just look at me with awe, even if I don't have makeup on, and I'm a mess and I'm exhausted and I'm crying, and all that stuff has really been healing [00:39:44] to me.

    And I think that we, um, sometimes as mothers and as parents, we, we talk about how hard it is because it is hard, but like the joys and the gifts of motherhood is, is THAT, right? It's like there's no, nobody else could have given that to me, not my spouse, not my brother, or anybody else. Um, and I really value your own honesty in sharing your story because it it also destigmatizes those stories.

    Yes. Because those are just different ways. not even different, but just another way of being raised, right? Just like you could have been raised in a mansion up on top of a hill with a pool in your backyard, or you could have been raised somewhere else and it's not, that one is right and one is wrong, cuz there's lots of unhappy people who are wealthy and, you know, grown up in those fancy houses too, and who have faced abuse, you know?

    So we, we assume that they're better, but they're not. And it's uh, [00:40:44] it's kind of like a wake up call. Like, oh, like these things can happen, you know, anywhere and everywhere.

    [00:40:50] Body Image and harmful Eurocentric standards based on white supremacy

    Surabhi: So with your, I wanna hear about body image a little bit because we know, we and I both know how body, you know, standards are Eurocentric and how, what has, has been your own journey?

    Selam: Yeah. Oh, wow. I think about, um, I think I did a post yesterday about it. I was, there was someone sharing about, um, about the types of foods that we're supposed to eat. And, you know, I, I remember going through this phase when I was younger on like diet culture and like, oh, I'm gonna lose weight and I gotta lose my bum.

    Which is my cultural, it's part of my cultural trait of being, you know, Ethiopian being African. I'm gonna, I wish that, uh, my body could look different. And, and I remember going through this phase where I only juiced, only chicken breasts and sweet potatoes. Like saw that all of the things, right?

    Surabhi: That sounds awful.

    Selam: I know. And, and, and, and was brainwashed and really [00:41:44] conditioned and socialized to believe that my cultural food was bad, that Ethiopian food was bad, that Indian food was bad, that curries were bad, that stews were bad, that breads that, you know, rice. And so I think, you know, growing up I definitely had this perspective that I, that my body was not the standard, right? I saw constantly the images of white women and this idea that, you know, if you watch the show, friends, like, we want our bodies to be like straight bodies like theirs. And, you know, our bodies never looked like that. I never saw that.

    When I looked at my aunts and I looked at my mom and I looked at, you know, my sisters and I looked at my family and my community, our bodies were so different, and I think I'm, I'm also fortunate, um, I don't know if you had this experience, but growing up in the nineties we had a lot of cultural also, Immersion in seeing ourselves a lot too, and in our community.

    And so I think I was always in this like, kind of dichotomy of this fight between like [00:42:44] what the white supremacist, cis hetero, patriarchal capitalist culture was telling me. And then like what I saw constantly with my family and friends in my community, um, in one way I was told that I was beautiful because I had curves.

    And then another way I was told that I was, I was ugly. And so, um, and, and I was fat, you know, I was, I was told that my whole life from the, the white cultural aspect,

    Surabhi: which is like, yeah, .

    Selam: And then I think that, That transformation, getting into the yoga world and not seeing any bodies that look like mine, like our bodies. And that was pretty, that was pretty intense.

    [00:43:24] White women co-opting Black features and traits while Black women are dehumanized for the same traits

    Selam: And so I think I've been, I've been through this like process of like decolonizing everything when it comes to body image. Because now when we look around, look, the Kim Ks and all of these people are stealing our bodies. Like literally, you know, white women are injecting their lips to have lips like ours.

    If I see another white woman with [00:43:44] injected lips, I think I'm gonna lose my mind. All these shows that I watch and I'm like, oh my gosh. They don't even know how to talk with their lips though. They're like,

    Surabhi: they can't talk though. They're like this. I know. Yeah. And, and the thing is like, people are so messed up because they're like, oh, we have right over our bodies.

    We can do whatever we want. And I'm like, okay. Yes. But also that was never like your body and like, like I have, I don't know. Cuz people will say, oh, well, who you, it's not your right to judge or decide what other people do with their bodies. But also when you're co-opting people's natural traits and like yeah.

    Cultural traits that are not yours. And not only that, why, why are you doing that?

    Selam: And not only that, when we, for me, for example, as a Black woman, yeah. I am dehumanized because of those traits. The

    Surabhi: same, the same traits. Yeah, the same

    Selam: traits. I'm, I'm, I'm oversexualized, I'm told that I'm unattractive. I'm told that I'm masculine.

    You know, like all of the ways in which our traits were told that we're [00:44:44] unattractive and we're dehumanized or we're more likely to be, you know, um, overpoliced or our communities that are surveilled. Like we're seen as like irresponsible

    Surabhi: mothers because of the way Yeah. Told you're going to nightclub and you're like that what exactly for just existing.

    That is so, that's so harmful. And you know, I, I, I do think I. , I see a lot of thin white women struggling with body image and I'm like, how fucked up is it that you're already the norm but you struggle with body image and this is why that diet culture and white supremacy doesn't benefit anybody. Even white folks and they like, they don't understand that or a lot of them don't understand that cuz you're like, it's impacting you in some ways.

    Almost more because for me, like when I moved here, I was, I was tiny. Like I, you know, a lot of Indian people are small depending on where in India you're from. I was real thin and I should have been in grade six and um, because I started school in India a year early, but [00:45:44] they said, the principal said, you're too small, I'll put you in grade five so you're not bullied.

    I was still the littlest in grade five and I didn't grow a lot in one year. , but I was held back academically because of my size. And so for me it was the other way. I was always too small. I started eating like a Canadian. I would drink four cups of milk, eat all the cheese. My face exploded in acne. My body's not used to eating foods like that.

    I stopped eating my cultural foods because I didn't wanna smell in school. So I was just not eat. I would just not eat. And so people thought I was a picky eater and didn't like vegetables. I'm like, I love okra, I love cabbage. Like I love the way it's cooked in India or by like my, my home, my, my native foods.

    But I didn't like the idea of a garden salad with like a lettuce and tomato. And that's what other people saw as being vegetarian. Because I'm vegetarian and we didn't eat a lot of eggs or dairy. There was dairy in our sweets and our, like some of our foods. But a lot of South Indian, Tamilian food is like, a lot of it is vegan.

    And um, [00:46:44] you know, I, my experience with diet culture was trying to gain weight. Mm-hmm. to try to fit in, to try to have a bit more curves. . And you know, I never succeeded obviously until I had my second baby. And you know what's funny? Nobody tells me I'm too thin now and I'm like, I finally have a belly. I finally have curves.

    Right? And nobody's, my mom's not harassing me to eat more. And, but this is the problem with diet culture. Why can't we just accept mm-hmm. bodies the way they are? My mom is small, I'm small, my dad's small. What would I expect? Right? Like Absolutely. And um, The big boobs, like the big butt, like the whole injections and implants.

    And I'm like, that is not a white woman's body typically. No.

    Selam: And it's like, that's fine. You have a ton. You can do whatever you want with your body, but stop co-opting and stealing from Black culture. Yes. And, and, and using it as like a, you know, currency Yeah. In society and, and you know, that's what they do.

    We don't [00:47:44] have, you know, we don't have the privilege to be able to do that. This is who we are and it comes with consequences and it comes with also culture and beauty and ancient like history. And you can't just, Take that.

    Surabhi: And you can't just like, select it. Yeah. Nah, yeah. It's like yoga. I'm waiting for the day.

    Yoga's no longer trendy. I'm just waiting for it. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen and it's gonna decide it's old news and like white folks will move on to the next thing. And I'm like, oh yeah. It's left a bad taste in my mouth because of how unwelcome I feel in yoga spaces. Mm-hmm. . So I would practice it more, and now I'm starting to learn about like, okay, I, I can't let them decide what I do.

    Mm-hmm. and like what cultural practices. I continue practicing because, um, there are spaces for people of color, you know, run by people of color. And we need to find those spaces and elevate those spaces because we lose our cultural and ancient wisdom and the, the sacred practices that come with yoga.

    And it's not just [00:48:44] stretching and flexibility. Um, and I appreciate that you talk about that in your studio as well. And you know, decolonizing. yoga and yoga industry standards that exist here.

    [00:48:57] How parenting shifts as your child gets older

    Surabhi: Can you talk about your journey now as a, you know, your child is growing up , you said he's going to university next year, right?

    Mm-hmm. . And how is it now? Because your parenting journey is not done by any means. He still needs you in a big way, especially over the next 10 years or so, you know, that I feel like until you're 25, 30, you're still a child, you know? Yeah. Um, what are your, what are you focusing on now? . Mm-hmm. .

    Selam: Yeah. And I really appreciate you saying the part about him, you know, them still being a child because I think the Western Canadian white culture is like, okay, you're out, you're 18, get out.

    And you know, alright. You figure it out. Or their perspective is like, you know, their parents go into retirement homes. I mean, [00:49:44] anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The point is like everyone just gets sent out and there's no community. So for me, I think I'm really excited that. He's gonna stay home for school and he's gonna go to, to Laurie.

    Um, you know, he just got his G2 and so he's driving. So I'm excited for the autonomy he has. I'm worried also, you know, for his safety, um, he wants to get involved in film and editing and the film world. And so I think what I'm trying to do is really support him in that field and helping him tap into what's possible for him.

    Right. And I think our parents never had the ability to do that. And so I'm like, what can I do to help, you know, lift him up and build him up so that, you know, we can go to the Toronto, there's a Black Toronto film festival, festival coming, there's opportunity to go to Vancouver and do some things there.

    And he's, uh, he edited my course, which is really amazing.

    Surabhi: What? That's incredible.

    Selam: That was Jaleel, like he did it. Yeah. . Oh my gosh. Wow. So he has incredible talent. [00:50:44] I think what I'm trying to help him. understand. So even after all of these years of like working so hard to pour into him, , all of the, the, um, media aspect, like the people he would learn from are all white.

    And, um, you know, people probably listening to this like, oh my gosh, they came back to race again. . It's like, well, it's, it's reality. It's reality. If you were a fly on the wall in our home, you would hear me saying to him every single day, like, Jaleel, we, we gotta seek out, um, people that you can be mentored by in this industry so that you don't continuously get socialized in the thinking that your stories don't matter.

    That our stories don't matter because you're gonna be storytelling, you're gonna be directing, you might be producing, you know, the next Black Panther or some other amazing film. Yeah. Or story or short film. And so I'm trying to support him in really re-imagining for himself. Um, because at the end of the [00:51:44] day, I, I, I know that intergenerational trauma has passed down and he's like, I know he can do anything, but we still are you know, amidst, systemic racism and all the ways in which he's gonna have to navigate university.

    And I'm like, child, I will come to your school. I will, these people know me in this community, , they know who I am. Mention your mother's name and use that as an opportunity to be able to, um, hopefully be able to push through that.

    [00:52:11] How insidious white supremacy culture is

    Surabhi: Well, and I think that's the other part about the parenting. It's like you can do, I think about that too is like you, you teach all this stuff at home, but the external environment, the schools, the daycares have such a powerful influence on your child.

    Like, something is so simple. We eat with our hands. Indian food. Right. And why, uh, one, one day, Nisha, my daughter comes home and uh, only started eating with a spoon or. , like even like the stuff that is you, like how do you even eat this with your spoon and fork? And, but she's been told every day at daycare it's [00:52:44] not clean to eat with your hands, but like, they're not even saying it as like an insult to people who do eat with their hands, but it's these subtle things that are so deeply harmful.

    So now I'm like, screw the cutlery. I'm like, we're making sure we really, and I'm like, you know, eating with my hands. Like it's just, it's a small thing, but it's a part of our traditions and I, I think our kids are gonna be dealing with that cuz they're still raised in that same white supremacist bubble.

    And um, as he grows up and becomes an adult, he'll probably do his own journey of unlearning too. And I think you've set him up for success in a way that maybe you didn't have because your, your parents didn't have the same opportunities and the same access and um, you know, absolutely same experiences as you.

    Selam: I hope he, I can't wait till he gets to his angry Malcolm X stage. I'm really, I'm really looking for that moment. , you know, everybody goes to that moment of like, what, you know, and, and I mean, I've obviously, like you said, you know, we share with our children all of the [00:53:44] things, right? They know about white supremacy and we talk to 'em about code switching.

    Like they, they know all the things, but I think there's an internal awakening that has to happen for them where they go, oh, okay. I, you know, cause I know he experiences from his white friends, you know, microaggressions, macroaggressions, which are really abuse, death by a thousand paper cuts about his hair, about his lips, you know, all of that has happened.

    Yeah. Yeah. For years. And I know that he also sometimes protects me from the things that happen cuz he knows I will show up, I will pull up to any space. And so I know he has to go through his own kind of like building of that awareness and that fire to wake up and go, oh yeah, enough is enough kind of thing.

    Surabhi: And for him to just learn that he can advocate and like, feel empowered to stand up and know that it's safe to do so. Because that's the other thing is we're not gonna stand up until we feel like, you know, okay, it is safe, I am protected. Um, and that death by a thousand paper cuts is so, so [00:54:44] accurate. And I had a big falling out this week with a friend who I've known for 22 years and I think I briefly shared with you that, and um, it's actually, I don't think I'm hurt as much anymore.

    I think it was meant to be. It had to happen at some point because we've grown, I've grown, and she's still back in high school phase. And ultimately when people are not willing to see the impact of their hurt and harm, or even recognize that their actions as a nice person, quote unquote, can be so deeply harmful, intentionally or unintentionally, we can't change them. And they have to recognize that for themselves and do that journey themselves.

    [00:55:23] The necessary pain you have to face when waking up to the truth

    Surabhi: Um, and that's something that your course really, your course was deeply painful for me. Just learning because I think that was necessary because it's not, you know, I know things from a brown Indian lens and then there's like the Black lens, and then there's the Indigenous and then the like the Chinese and the Japanese, and like all of the [00:55:44] different cultures and communities around the world that are so deeply impacted and then we pretend like we're just fine and nothing happened. And you're like, but it did. And so I think there needs to be that pain in that learning. So then you can then start to come over to the other side and be like, okay, but what now? What can we change now? And what systems can we like speak up at?

    Like we went to our kids' daycare for Canada today. Actually, my, my partner, my spouse did. Cause we took the, your course together and I'm like, I'm not doing the labor for every single time there's an issue of race or something. Mm-hmm. You know, because it is emotionally a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, and if we're parenting together, this needs to be, this needs to be happening.

    So they put Canada flag tattoos on my kids, my daughter, the older kids, without asking our permission. I'm like, first of all, don't mark my kids' bodies with [00:56:44] anything without my permission. That part. And they're like, oh. But she was excited. I'm like, she's a kid. She wants to be included. Of course she's excited.

    Everyone else is doing it, but she's three. Like, let's, you know, and we, we talked about, we don't celebrate Canada Day. Mm-hmm. , we, we talked about the, you know, we just talked about the Indigenous, you know, the harm and her, and suddenly the next day we're just in celebration mode. And, um, anyways, that was a conversation that my husband had with them.

    Whether they are gonna change it for next year, I don't know. But they won't touch our kids with tattoos anymore. That's, that's for sure. Um, and then teaching our kids why they're not necessarily being excluded. But, that that's an inclusion that we don't wanna be part of.

    Selam: Mm-hmm. That's why we have to clarify what we mean by inclusion.

    Yeah. And, and diversity and all, all of these, this language that's been tokenized now and, you know, co-opted, what do we even mean by that? Yeah. And you know, there's a cognitive dissonance around the colonial am amnesia that they want us to all stay under, you know? Yes. [00:57:44] Because they benefit from that. When we stay under the colonial amnesia and we, we are just not aware, we're numb and we smile and we do racism with a smile, and we accept these spaces, which is survival.

    It's not our fault to, you know, we've had to assimilate. We've had to survive. And, but the reality is like, when we start to become aware and we go through that painful experience like you shared through, you know, doing that kind of unlearning and relearning and, and looking at it, it, it ignites something in you.

    It wakes up something in you, it wakes up pain, it wakes up trauma, but it also is like a reminder, like, oh. They've lied to me my whole life and I get to reclaim exactly my culture and reclaim all the things we talked about today. Body image, standards, food, how we eat. I always say that, like why do we even sit at tables in the way that we do like, like we're all British.

    Surabhi: I know. I tell my clients, I'm like, eat breakfast on the floor because. We need mobility. And you're always sitting [00:58:44] like the sit in different surface, different place. Like we, everything is so, you're right, it's insidious in everything we do. Um, and like even just the act of like, when I show up at a friend's house, I don't want you to have to clean for me and give this big, I just wanna feel like family, right?

    Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But with like the whiteness, it's like, oh, well, uh, I have to know three months in advance so I can clean up. And I'm like, this is not friendship anymore. This is a business appointment. Like, you know, like let's just take that facade off and be human.

    [00:59:15] The joy in Black, brown and Indigenous cultures

    Surabhi: And I think that, you know, I showed my husband this video of like a Diwali celebrations in India, and I'm like, see the joy, this joy, this joy.

    Can you tell me one white celebration that has this much joy?

    Selam: Yeah. And no . You know what? Fine. Maybe Oktoberfest, but Oktoberfeset is like a drinking. It's drinking.

    Surabhi: Yeah. When you're drunk, everything's fun, right? Like, exactly. Yeah.

    Selam: And I, I feel the same way. Like in Ethiopian culture, it's like I share a [00:59:44] lot of, you know,

    Surabhi: and I love that you do a lot.

    Selam: Grateful I do. To me it like protects me. . I'm like, here's information about white supremacy. I'm gonna say white supremacy 15 times today, but I'm gonna continuously like, integrate my, like your joy, my, my joy in it because they're, I, you know, I made a decision a while ago after burning out multiple times.

    Yes. Like, I'm not going to be a mule to white supremacist awakening. That is not my job. Like my job is to impact my community. My job is to heal. My job is to support my son in intergenerational healing, to break those intergenerational cycles. My job is to thrive. My job is to be empowered. My job is to live a full and like, you know, full and thriving life.

    And you know, on top of that, I will teach. I love to teach. I know it's, I'm called to do that, but it's not gonna be at the expense of my own wellbeing. . Yes. And you know, I think I'm grateful that I've been brought up in a culture where we know how to [01:00:44] do two things, which I know your culture does too. Our cultures all do Black and brown cultures and Indigenous cultures.

    [01:00:50] How white supremacy culture and colonial violence makes people disconnected from humanity

    Selam: We know how to mourn and we know how to have joy. Yes. We are not disconnected from our humanity. Um, and I think what comes, you know, the culture of white supremacy and colonialism, you know, in order to be able to perpetuate that type of violence for hundreds and hundreds of years, you have to disconnect from your humanity.

    Yes. And that's what we see here. This kind of capitalistic, white supremacist, like very, um, you know, cannot dance . Yeah. Dance society.

    Surabhi: I have two kids and one has my jeans for dance and one doesn't, and I'm like, I got a teach her because this. Like dance is like, just, I'm not amazing at it, but it's just part of my life, you know?

    And it's, oh, amazing. You just, the rhythm and the feel and the music. And you know, it's, it's interesting because I, um, I [01:01:44] shared just my experience this week, , somebody messaged me on Instagram that I, a friend of one of my best friends that I've known for 22 years, uh, this, this other person messaged me asking me how to pronounce a name.

    Hey, Monday morning, hey, uh, can you just tell me how to pronounce this name? I'm like, excuse me, . I'm like, am I encyclopedia? Am I Google? Am I the, am I the authority on name pronunciation? Am I the authority on every single thing Indian? And, and let me tell you this, that name was not Indian. And I said, there are, uh, 1.3 billion Indian people.

    There's millions of names and ways to pronounce names. And I said, this is not a question for me. And I'm like, why don't you just ask the person, like, you know, You'd wanna know something, ask, oh, she's a real estate agent. And she's like, oh, well I would, but, uh, some excuse. And I said, I just said like, no, you know, look it up.

    And then she's like, haha, you know, hope you weren't offended. Sorry. And I said, you knew I was going to going to be offended cuz you're saying that. And I said, I'm like, actually, I'm really surprised you asked me this question. This is not appropriate. I'm not Google. [01:02:44] Um, and I just left it at that and I informed, I messaged my friend, informed her that her friend had done this.

    Mm-hmm. And the way my friend reacted was, I mean, you know, initially it was like, oh, like, sorry that that was inappropriate. But you know, you do talk about name pronunciation and, you know, um, I guess when you follow someone on social media, it seems like they get to know you or whatever. And, and I was like, even if my husband came and asked me random questions like that, I would've thought it was weird.

    And I, and I said, I was like, I don't need justifications. I need an apology and an acknowledgement of the harm. And a friend should be able to hold space like that and also have a conversation with your white friend to stop doing this kinda shit. Um, and so that her reaction was very telling, but the worst part was her husband then messaging me the next day, oh, gaslighting me and tone policing me and calling me, you know, condescending and then asking me not to tell his wife about it.

    Wow. I was like, this happens to nice white people. This [01:03:44] is literally somebody I would've called family, 22 year friendship. But this is what, this is how they see me and how they, you know, that they don't really see me as an equal human. So, um, why are we investing time into relationships like this?

    And for anyone who's a Black, brown, person of color listening to this, I know you've had experiences like this with white friends. I know for a fact every single person has, you do not need to put up with that kind of space, um, where you're not seen for your humanity. And take Selam course cuz you'll learn.

    That's what, that's where I started learning. I was like, you know what? , I have control over who I have around my life. Mm-hmm. , maybe my parents didn't, when they moved here, maybe I didn't as a kid, I was stuck in, you know, the circles I was, but now I have children, I have to be protective of them and my own space and my mental health.

    And, um, I'm really like, that course changed my life and I don't say that lightly. Um, because the healing, it was, uh, it was really painful. Like during some of those like just the [01:04:44] lectures and you're like, because we didn't learn about this in school and I wish we did because kids need to learn it, not so that they can hold that trauma in them, but so that they know what was actually happening and so that they don't repeat these mistakes over and over.

    White people need to learn this so that they recognize what their history is, their parents', grandparents' history is, and maybe they can also recognize why they're so disconnected with themselves and their joy and their like you said, through grief too. Yeah. Um, you know, it's

    [01:05:17] Things you need to teach a Black boy as a parent

    Surabhi: I have a few questions for yourself but one thing that I did wanna ask is as a mother to a, um, Black child, Black boy especially, what are some of the things that you have had to teach him that somebody who's white, even somebody who's brown, probably does not have to teach the boys that?

    And this is something that I ask because everyone says their mothering is hard. being a mom is hard, but it's not the same type of hard for everyone. [01:05:44]

    Selam: No. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, we're very. Deliberate about the fact that he's driving. And that's a huge thing, you know, it's like, okay, what are, what are the things that we always talk about?

    We always do a check-in. Okay, so you're gonna go out if this happens, if you get pulled over, what do you say first? What do you do with your hands? Like, what are you going to communicate? You know? And, and so that's a big one, obviously recently that we've been dealing with. Mm-hmm. . But, you know, another part is like when he goes to friends' houses, it's like, Don't go into and don't wander into any other rooms, even like you're being a kid and like you're just gonna, you're playing and you're not, I know that you're not doing anything harmful, but like you may be accused of something.

    So, you know, making sure that you're not wandering in any other spaces, making sure that you're extra nice and saying thank you and saying Please and all of that, because of the ways in which they try to, you know, deem our, our children, our Black boys as, as you know, um, as criminal really. Um, you [01:06:44] know, if you're going out with your friends and y'all are at the mall, making sure that, you know, you do not put your hands in your pockets.

    Making sure that when you're in stores, that you're, um, that you're careful, that you're aware if you're friends and y'all wanna go out, cuz he is a teenager and he should be able to, you know, make mistakes.

    Surabhi: Socialize. Yeah. He should be allowed to make mistakes.

    Selam: Yeah. But he, he, you know, we really, there's a hypervigilance that he has to be aware of because, of the fact that if his white friends decide that they wanna, you know, do something and have, you know, have fun or be, you know, do something funny as a teenager, it's like you are the one that's gonna be targeted if security or police or a Karen or a Ken, you know, the, the policing white people of the community.

    Yeah. Um, see you. And so, um, I think it's things like that, but it's also like him going into the film world. And I remember us having like a really, it was a heart to heart and I, I felt sad and I felt like I have to do this. I have to teach my son this. [01:07:44] I was saying to him, like as he was developing, um, you know, developing content, I was saying like, you know, it's important for you to be aware.

    Like if you create. The difference between creating things that like are rooted in who you are or projecting the socialization of whiteness. Right. In your storytelling. Yeah. And he was like, but mommy, like why can't I, you know, it's a couple years ago. Like, why can't, why do I have to think about this? My friends don't have to think about this.

    You know, when they're creating as content creators and doing media and editing and, and directing and writing scripts, like they don't have to think about all this. And I was like, I know kiddo, and I'm sorry, but this is a reality. . And you know, we've had so many hard conversations like that where his white friends are able to do certain things and, and, and for us, we don't culturally, there's things culturally we won't do.

    You know, white friends, white parents often let their children, you know, do a lot of things at very young ages in their homes and drink and smoke. And I'm like, we can't let that happen. Yeah. [01:08:44] And I want you to have autonomy and I want you to have freedom, but I also need to ensure you're safe.

    Surabhi: Safe. Yeah.

    And I think that's the, um, that's the part that as a kid I was rebelling as a teen and as a brown girl. I wish that I did listen to my parents more because they didn't necessarily have heart to hearts. It was more of a control. Like, listen to us or, or else, that's it. and I did many stupid things that I really wish I didn't do.

    Um, you know, scenarios I got myself into was taken advantage of because I was trying to fit in. And I think it's so, um, I think it's so important that you're having these conversations with him. I know they're hard because it's gonna hopefully protect him too, um, from also, you know, growing up and be like, oh, I've just been storytelling.

    I've just been creating from a white lens that I'm taking myself out of the equation because [01:09:44] his. His expertise and his view is his expertise, right? Like his opinion matters. Um, there's a thousand other white, you know, creators out there. And even as a physio, right, like as a physio, as a pregnancy and postpartum fitness coach, my content is different than the other thousand.

    You know, Sarahs and, white physios out there. Mm-hmm. . Um, and you know, people will be like, wow, your content's really good. I'm like, that's cuz you're not used to seeing content from a non-white lens. That's why you're, you're like, you're seeing it and you're like, oh, cuz I'm talking about things in a different, not in a different way, but in a way that's authentic to me.

    Um, and I, yeah, I'm, I'm really, um, I'm sure you're so proud of your son and I know he's gonna grow up and be like, I'm so damn proud of my mother because what you have been doing for him and done as a single mother, and you're not just impacting his life, you're impacting your whole community and everybody who knows you in the online space and through your courses.

    Um, and [01:10:44] yeah, endless gratitude to you, honestly. Thank you.

    [01:10:47] Final Thoughts with Selam

    Surabhi: Um, I have some final thoughts I wanna ask you about yourself and your every day. Um, what's your, what are you reading right now? What's your favorite book, your favorite podcast? What, what do you recommend? Huh?

    Selam: So what am I, I'm not reading anything specific right now, but I would think when I think about, um, a book that I really love recommending in terms of like parenthood Yeah.

    Is, um, I would say Between the World and Me, um, Tana Hassi Coats. I think that that book broke my heart open and was like, ah, he is like a poet. And um, yeah, that book is an incredible book for I think anyone but especially Black parents that are, are listening to, to this podcast. Um, and, and all parents to listen to.

    Surabhi: Nice. And that, I'll put, put that on my list. I love reading in the fall and winter. I don't really read in the summer cuz it's go outside more. But, [01:11:44] um, I'll put that on my list. And how about what do you do on a daily basis for self-care? , what do you prioritize three rituals or three things that you do to hold space for yourself?

    Selam: Well, I'm, I'm trying to now like nightly do like a nightly journal, and so I'm trying to like, write down my thoughts. Um, I listen to like an inspiring, um, to an inspirational video. And this sounds corny to some folks, but it really helps me. But it's Oprah and there's these words that she,

    Surabhi: I love Oprah.

    Selam: Yeah, right. Yeah. Um, and there's a video and it's the same one. It's, it's literally the same one almost every single time. But it's like, for me, it's like I feel like I'm trying to lay down new neural pathways in my mind. And that's, you know, instead of all of these, uh, you know, patriarchal white, self-development books that I read for so many years, I'm trying to like reprogram, you know, my mind to start listening to her voice and her experiences.

    I feel, I feel deeply connected to her childhood and the things that happened to her and, and [01:12:44] so yeah, Oprah and, journaling.

    Nice. And um, one thing that I wanted to say about that is you. , the self-development books. I've always liked that too, even since I was a teenager. My parents like it too. But you're right, they're all white voices.

    And even like words like I'm a people pleaser, but I'm like, are you a people pleaser or a white people pleaser? Like there's, that's a difference, right? Like there's so many like, ah, imposter syndrome, and I'm like, I've never felt like an imposter. It's just that I'm never represented so I don't feel like I belong.

    Like there's a difference, right? Mm-hmm. , I don't doubt that I'm, I can step up and show up. It's just we learn these key phrases and things that women deal with and I'm like, I don't resonate with that messaging because the reason I feel like I don't belong is very different than imposter syndrome.

    Exactly. And when white, white women and men and non-binary folks write books about. You know, from their perspective and their lens and try to, you know, market it as like, for everyone. For everyone. Yeah. [01:13:44] It's, it's not true, right? It's not true. It's for a white audience. Be honest about that. Take accountability for that.

    Um, because our experiences are dramatically different in society. And so yeah, listening to Black and brown voices in everything I do now is really key for me to be able to, you know, do that healing.

    Surabhi: Yeah. Yeah. And if, what are you passionate about right now? What's something that's like new or old or anything now?

    What's your main passion right now?

    Selam: Um, what am I passionate about right now? I think I'm passionate about, right now, I'm passionate about joy. I think I'm really trying to live out joy in like, uh, Regardless of all of the things and in spite of all of the things, and so practicing joy, I think, um, I had my 40th birthday recently and I had nineties r and b dj.

    I had like,

    Surabhi: that looked amazing. That looked so much fun. And I love that joy doesn't have to be on pause because of other things that are happening, right? Like it's, I always think about [01:14:44] that flowers are still blooming even if there's a war, like, you know, there's still flowers blooming, nature still keeps going on and like we need to. Experiencing joy and love and, um,

    Selam: and if you look at other cultures, like not other, our cultures across the globe, the global majority, you know, work does not come first. No. Community comes first, connection comes first. And so we also internalize that white supremacy, capitalist culture where we start to become these people where we're just like working to live.

    And then we get home. Yeah. And then we don't have energy. And then it's like, oh, it's hump Day Wednesday and then Friday and then Wednesday. And I'm just like, I am like trying to decolonize myself and get back to that, to that place or you know, I don't know if I was ever there, but I know that I experienced it growing up, that essence.

    And I know what it feels like to go back home, to go to Ethiopia and, and experience that when, you know, everybody's like, I remember going to Ethiopia and being like, okay, but we're, we gotta be there on time, like at 12 . [01:15:44] Yeah. And everybody was like In our culture, like in our language means like, It's not a big deal.

    Yeah. Like, we're good .

    Surabhi: Yeah. That's . I'm like, uh, being on time is stressful to me because, uh, my, my family, we never were on time for everything, anything. And it stresses me out because everything is so timely here. And I'm like, listen, if I wanna meet my friends for dinner, don't yell at me. If I'm five, 10 minutes late, this is now becoming a stressful thing instead of a fun thing.

    Um, and it's a very like, white thing, right? And, and, and it's also common in Black, brown, you know, folks who also are living in that white supremacist lens, they get upset about lateness and this and. .

    Selam: Yeah. My dad was like that. My dad definitely was like, he he internalized that kind of professionalism.

    Yes. And, and I had this, and then my mom was a complete opposite. My mom was like, did not. And so it [01:16:44] was like, ugh. I, and, and I fought myself on that. I thought that I was a bad person or that I was disrespectful for so many years. Yeah. Until I started to realize, like now they have all these conversations around deconstructing and time as an illusion.

    I'm like, oh, really? So now y'all are gonna start talking about, you know, changing work cultures and changing the ways in which we look at time. It's like, I think all of the things that I used to reject, or I thought was bad about our, our pet. Yeah. I'm like reclaiming it. It's like, obviously I'm not gonna be disrespectful, but it's not that big of a deal.

    Yeah.

    Surabhi: Exact. That's what I feel. I'm like, it's really, it's not an emergency. Don't feel like, you know, the world is ending. Um, and the other thing is like, I remember like with that, this is how I see it. World, many parts of the world, colonized, stole traditions, stole foods, spices, cultures, women, changed, north America, western culture.

    And then now [01:17:44] in India, they're copying Western culture. They're eating like us here, they're copying things. But now here we're learning, oh, we, you know, Eastern culture, you know, the, they were right. And now what's gonna happen in 50 years is back home in India. They're gonna start realizing that their ancient ways were right.

    But like that damage, like I see my cousins eating like food, like cheese dosas, like, I don't know, you know? Yeah. You don't make cheese and doza, I'm sorry. You cannot do that. And it's just like they're just copying the Western because they believe that we're better, just like they believe. My parents believe that it's a better world here and a better opportunities.

    And I'm like, you're, you've been fed a lie. And I think even on sharing on social media, I know a lot, I have a lot of Indian followers and I hope they see that coming here is not gonna guarantee them anything. Mm-hmm. . It's not . No.

    Selam: If anything, you, yeah, if anything it's a, it's a huge sacrifice. You give up a lot.

    Surabhi: You give up so much. My, yeah. I still today miss community. I still feel part of me [01:18:44] is, um, we live in an area where there's a lot of Chinese, Korean, Persian, but not a lot of Indians. And I feel like I miss community. And so I've started to go to the temple more often. Even though there's not as many like young youth, there's still the sense of community and the clothing.

    My daughter, for the first time wanted to wear Indian clothes and that was really healing for me because I felt like it's really important for my children to also love and embrace, you know, their Indian heritage. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

    Now, if you could change anything about the world, what would it be?

    I feel like I already know the answer, but , can we reverse

    Selam: the last 500 years of, I know, white supremacy, colonialism that destroyed the earth, exploited, extracted, and, you know, where we're now all in therapy as Black and brown, you know, and racialized and Indigenous people for the internalized racism that we've experienced.

    I think the world is a little bit of a dumpster, dumpster fire right now. Yes. In terms of white men, [01:19:44] um, continuously destroying the world. And I do, um, I think that what I wish more than anything if I could change things is that our children will have a different vision for themselves and will not have to fight as hard as we've had to fight.

    Yeah. Um, and so that's, I think that's my, my greatest highest, you know, vision and, and purpose for, for, for our next generation.

    Surabhi: I love that and I hope that that happens. Um, I think we're, we are part of the change and I hope that we create pathways for our children and for our children's children to live in a better, more healing environment and space.

    Um, and I think even Mother Earth, right? Like even the earth itself is crying, right? Like we have harmed the earth so much through our exploitation and capitalism, and excess, excess, everything. Um, yeah. That's a great, that's a great wish. [01:20:44] Um, and I hope that we will get there. Um, what would you say is your mom strength?

    Selam: Hmm. I think my mom's strength is really owning. My own story, like owning it to the point where it, it's transformative and um, really releasing layers and layers of shame. And, you know, I think folks used to say to me like, oh, like, does Jaleel feel bad about himself because he doesn't have, you know, his biological father in his life.

    It's like, no, but we normalize those conversations from the moment he could speak. Yeah. So it was never a taboo thing, and he knows about all the things that have happened to me, so I've never hid those things from him. So that in, in obviously age appropriate ways. Yeah, absolutely.

    that it's been a journey of like, reclaiming all of who I am. Yeah. And realizing the parts of myself that I used to think was too much is actually my superpower. Yeah. Um, when it's, when it's, you know, placed [01:21:44] in the direction of good. And so I think it's, it's the ability to be able to mirror back to my son that I'm, I'm a human being.

    Yeah. I don't, I don't think my mom or my dad could do that for me. No. Um, our parents could not because they were in survival and they were in teaching mode. And so, although I teach a lot to my son, I feel like I'm also able to mirror back to him my humanity and the fact that I'm also a mother, but I'm also a, a human being.

    Surabhi: You're also human. Yeah. And I think that's, uh, that's something that I wish, you know, my mom had done for me is. Tell told me, oh, I've been through this too. Uh, instead of that feeling of I'm the authority figure and you, you have to just listen to me, we are perfect and you are the one making mistakes.

    And that was part of the, you know, the type of environment that I grew up in and that, that was probably part of the colonialism and the mm-hmm. , the like, patriarchy, you know, model too. So, um, I love that you are, uh, an amazing, incredible person [01:22:44] and, um, you have touched so many people that you probably will never know because of the work that you do.

    And also the, um, fullness, the wholeness in the ways that you actually embrace who you are. I'm thinking about some parts of myself that I have never talked about, and I'm like, , why do I still hold shame there? Mm-hmm. , because it's not my shame to hold. And you know, even just this conversation is very healing.

    Uh, and I'm so excited for people to hear it and connect with you if you, if they don't already know you. Um, and to continue just learning and engaging with you. If people wanna find you or hang out with you or connect with you, where's the best place? And if they wanna learn from you, where's the best?

    Selam: So first I just wanna say thank you, Surabhi

    you're such an incredible, your voice, first of all, on the anti-racism course was so incredible. And I remember being like, yes, Surabhi's here. Like, you're going to say all the things and you came in. [01:23:44] I know there's a lot of emotional labor that came with that, but also your heart and your spirit, your voice was so fierce.

    Um, so I'm just totally in love with everything that you're doing and I love watching your videos and how you inspire people. So thank you. Thank you for everything that you do. Um, but folks can find me on, Selamdebs.com. That's my website. They can also go to Instagram, um, at Selam debs and, uh, Facebook for the same thing everywhere.

    Everything is basically Selam Debs. If you're looking, you'll be able to find me .

    Surabhi: Perfect. And your next, when's your next round of your anti-racism course coming?

    Selam: So the anti-racism course, the cohort will begin the first week of January.

    Surabhi: Amazing. I 100% recommend it. It has been transformational. There was a, it was actually perfectly time for me because I felt like I went into myself for a while and let it sit and let it kind of just work through me. And, um, [01:24:44] you know, just being kind with ourselves, especially for anyone who is Black, Indigenous, brown, racialized, just having the compassion for ourselves because we didn't ask to be put in these situations, but we have had to deal with it time and time again. I didn't ask to wake up Monday morning and have that random message. I didn't ask for that. But yet we're dealing with it and we're dealing with the aftermath and, um, having the tools, the language that you teach, it's more than the language.

    The really, the understanding of like why we got here, how we got here, and the communities that it impacts so much more. I see a lot of, you know, and I can say this cuz I'm Indian, you know, Indian people will feel sorry for themselves, but I'm like, you also understand that there are other communities that face it much more and in a more damaging, unsafe way.

    So yes and right, like, it's like, yes, we are dealing with this and we also need to be accountable and speak out so that even when we're uncomfortable, that's what I [01:25:44] prioritize now. I'm like, I'm uncomfortable in this scenario, but this person may then go on to harm somebody else. And that's, that's what I'm thinking and that's not okay.

    And, um, it's just helped me find my voice more. So thank you so much. Thank you for this conversation. Lots of love to you and lots of joy to you as well. So if you're listening to this conversation and you loved it, please tag us on Instagram, share it with a friend, share it with everybody in your life who needs to, learn, grow,, and be inspired.

    Thank you.

Surabhi Veitch https://www.thepassionatephysio.ca
Previous

48. Sexual confidence, intimacy & body image with Dr. Jacqueline Sherman
Next

46. Healing, joy and returning to your authentic self with Inemesit Graham