64. Vaginismus, Sexual Pain, Culture & Religion with Dr. Darshana Naik
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Surabhi Veitch interviews board-certified pelvic physical therapist Dr. Darshana Naik about vaginismus, religion, shame and how to overcome painful sex.
We discuss:
Meeting Patients in the Middle
Painful Intimacy
Sexual Shame and how it influences Vaginismus
Painful Sex
Religion & Sex
Psychology of Painful Sex
Pleasure Matters
Girlfriend's Guide to Pain Free Sex
Growing Your Small Business
Dr. Darshana Naik Bio
Dr. Darshana Naik is a pelvic physiotherapist who has a passion for helping busy women with a variety of issues such as sexual dysfunction, pelvic pain and pregnancy aches. Listen to this week’s episode as Dr. Naik talks about the cultural barriers around pleasure and sex and the importance of getting helpful with vaginismus or painful sex.
Connect with Dr Darshana & Important Links:
—Follow Dr Darshana on Instagram , YouTube or TikTok @pelvicptgyan
—https://drdarshanapelvicpt.com
—Buy Dr. Darshana’s book Girlfriend’s Guide to Pain Free Sex on Amazon
—Text PSA 33777 for free guide: pelvic PSA
Connect with Surabhi:
Website: https://www.thepassionatephysio.ca
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Surabhi: [00:01:53] Hi everyone. I'm so excited to have you back for another episode of Mom Strength. This is your host, Surabhi Veitch, and I have today a pelvic PT, Dr. Darshana Naik, who works in Seattle as a pelvic pt, and she also offers telehealth and, you can find her on Instagram at pelvicptgyan and on TikTok and YouTube, that's how we connected actually in the online space.
And then we found out we had so much in common and I'm so excited to have her on here today. Hi Darshana how are you?
Darshana: Hi Surabhi hello everyone. I'm doing very well. Thank you for asking.
Surabhi: So your bio, you say you help busy women with practical and personalized solutions to intimate health issues through all stages of life, be it pelvic pain, bladder, bowel, or sexual dysfunction, pregnancy, birth prep, postpartum and beyond.
And I love, I love this because hole Health is [00:02:53] Whole health spelling, h o l e and duck second is w h o l e. I absolutely love that. I love it. That's right. So much. Cause it is. It absolutely is. And in our culture especially, things like painful sex are very, very common. And I wanna get into that. And can you, can you just talk about, um, your work and what's your passion?
Darshana: Um, so I'm a pelvic PT like you said, and um, I started off as, you know, thinking I'm gonna treat a lot of incontinence. Cause I took level one course and I wanted to go straight to the textbook. Right. And I kept getting a lot of people who were having painful sex. And you know, as you know, even in physical therapy schools, uh, they don't teach you a whole lot about pelvic floor.
And that was my. Very introduction was starting with a level three course kind of stuff. So that got me down the path of being really transparent with my patients as to, Hey, you have this [00:03:53] problem. I don't know how to treat it, but I'm willing to figure this out if you are letting me figure it out. And for better or for worse, back in the day, you know, 15 years ago, pelvic PTs were not that common.
So when I was in New York, there wasn't a pelvic PT nearby and the patient was willing to let me. Figure this out. I was, again, we cannot imagine life without Instagram right now, but 15 years ago it wasn't easy to find a mentor. Yes. I literally did one by one going back to research articles and all of the things that were Wow.
A little less accessible. Right now they're a lot more, and, and just,
Surabhi: just so who's listening? I didn't have a smartphone 15 years ago. Right. Like that. Like that's a different time. Right. So yeah, the fact that pelvic pt, I didn't even know pelvic PTs existed back then. Like, the fact that you were doing pelvic back then is amazing.
And so you were in New York back then and you were correct. It sounds like you were really advocating for your own patients and doing the research yourself.
Darshana: Yeah, and and most of my [00:04:53] mentors were physicians. Cause I didn't know my, one of my early patients were having painful sex because of vulvodynia. I didn't know what vulvodynia was.
And uh, as scary as it was, I just literally went to the urogynecologist who referred. I said, I don't know what vulvodynia is, but I wanna help her. And, you know, that's sort of how I got started. And the more I did it, of course I then went and got all the also two, um, board certified in public health. I'm board certified in orthopedics.
I, I did all the things that you need to do to get the knowledge. So I'm by no means advocating learn on your patients.
Patients are the best teachers, right? Like they, if you are really listening, they, they tell you what they want. And that's sort of where my mission statement came from. Like, I help busy people, you know, they want to take care of their health, but they also have a million other things that are on the front burner for them.
And for the longest time, I would [00:05:53] have patients come in and sit in the treatment room and the first sentence was, I'm sorry, I've been a bad patient. I didn't do my homework.
Surabhi: I know, I can see that. Yeah, I get that all the time and I'm like, it's okay. It's all good.
Meeting Patients in the Middle
Darshana: Uh, and yet, you know, at one point I kinda took a step back and realized, what about this, what about my interaction with you is making you feel like you need to apologize?
The first, like, if you think about it at a human level, the first feeling I'm giving this busy person. They feel guilty, they feel like shit. They feel like they know what they should be doing, but they aren't doing it. So somehow they are causing their problems. Right. Like it's a, it's not a feeling I wanna give anyone.
And that's where I started realizing that, okay, while. And this was a lot of like self-development and personal development. I found mentors that spoke to my soul at that time to realize that as much as we want to do [00:06:53] patient-centric care, meaning you have badness, you have pain sex, you need to do these 55 things to get better, I really resonated more with patient driven care.
You need to do these 15 things, but right now you have time for one. Yeah. Tell me which one. Yeah, tell me which one. You know, I am an expert in painful sex. You are an expert in your life. Let's meet in the middle and I might tell you, Hey, you dilators are gonna help you. But if you, if I create a space where you can very openly tell me, I freaking hate dilators, that patient compliance is gonna be very different because, you know.
You are raising children, right? Surabhi just like me. Yes. How many times it's easy to get your kid to do something they think they wanna do versus it's your idea. Exactly.
Surabhi: It's it's psychology lesson right there. Right? It's like when, when even a two year old, if they think it's their idea, they're gonna wanna do it, versus if you tell them even at the age [00:07:53] of one, they're like, Nope.
Stand, you know, they stand their ground and adults are the same. We don't, they don't wanna be told, you gotta do this, this, and this and this. Yeah, it has to be a conversation.
Darshana: Yeah. That's sort of I, you know, that just changed the game for me and at a very basic level, when somebody is having intimate health struggles, whether that is peeing your pants or painful sex or whatever else, right?
You feel lost of control on your body. You want your body to do something that it's not doing. Yeah. For no fault of its own, it's just asking for some help, but you can't help but feel defeated. You can't help but feel like I have no control on. My private parts and, and that's a very vulnerable place to be at.
And when you're coming from that angle, it is not compassionate to make the patient then feel like you have no control on what you or homework is. Yeah. Or yeah, it's just what the recent research shows. So you better do 15 dilator every day, or [00:08:53] you know,
Surabhi: And I, I really respect that because I remember going to like a pelvic health course and they're like, yeah, you tell a new mom, they need to do three sets of 10 Kegels, um, ten second hold, uh, minimum, like, you know, ten second hold.
And I'm like thinking you don't have kids, do you? Because like, I get it, it sounds easy, but like it's, first of all, it's a boring exercise. It's unnecessary. And like a ten second hold, like. Their mental, like let's give them something that's functional, achievable, that they're interested in doing, that it's gonna help them feel successful.
Because when you give them that as the exercise, they're gonna come back and tell you they didn't do it, and then you're gonna blame them when their symptoms haven't approved. When the reality is it's not the Kegel that is gonna help their symptoms anyways. So it's, I really think that, unfortunately, even now, pelvic health courses, the way they're being taught is very much the research does this, the, we say this, you have to listen.
And I\ think you and I both agree that that's just not what actually works in real life. [00:09:53] In real life. The patient, the person in front of you, gets to decide what works best. Otherwise, it's kind of like pointless, right? Like, Yeah, we all know to eat healthy and exercise, but why don't we do it Right. It's, it's not because we don't know, it's cuz we sometimes feel like we don't have control over any of that.
Darshana: Right. Right. And that's not a good feeling for anyone. Right. Um, yeah and you know, even with like, if you kind of translate this, what we talked about it in more research and clinical language, there are some barriers there too. Like if you look at biopsychosocial model, Patient compliance is higher with biopsychosocial model.
This asking the patient what you want is essentially translated biopsychosocial model. You're not looking at the person in front of you, but you're also looking at what are all the things that are happening in their life. And yeah, at surface value, it seems like that's a personal problem. This is a professional problem, but if something is disrupting a person's life at a very personal level, [00:10:53] It's gonna show up.
So I do a lot of speaking at corporate events and I talk to high power women about pelvic floor issues because we know pelvic floor issues are more common, uh, when people have anxiety. Uh, women who are in male dominated fields or women who are, for lack of a better word, successful or doing 55 different things at the same time.
Yep. Generally tend to have more anxiety, generally tend to have more pelvic floor issues. Yes. And just like there, it feels like this is not a work conversation. This is a lady problem, private conversation, but it's everything. Yeah. If your personal life is disrupted, if you're having bedroom issues, if you're having bathroom issues, It's gonna show up in your boardroom.
I don't know how, but it's gonna show up. Today or tomorrow it's gonna, you know, um, so I feel like yes,
Surabhi: distraction too. If you feel like, oh, I gotta go pee, but I have this meeting, I have to go speak at this meeting and, and then you're distracted, that's gonna end up with you being irritable, distracted, like it impacts you [00:11:53] in, in many ways.
And, and socially too, I have clients who avoid social scenarios cuz I don't wanna go sit at the baseball game because I, I will probably leak and I won't be able to sit there and. You know, it impacts every aspect of our lives. And so we have to look at it in the whole picture. Um, the whole picture, the
Darshana: whole, the whole picture.
Like, you know, a story comes to mind when we talk about this. Is it okay if I share it? Yeah, of course. Please do. Um, one of my patient many years ago, um, came into her appointment, all worked up. You know how some days we get people when they're on their lowest and yes. We're just like, you know what? Let's put physical therapy aside for a minute.
Like one human to another. What's up? Yeah. And she told me she is, you know, in a leadership position in a tech company here and. Just generally surrounded by very well-meaning supportive coworkers, but all men. And they were, you know, putting, pitching in for something very important. And [00:12:53] she was having a lot of issues with incontinence.
She didn't think it would get to her, but it got to her head because something was happening. She had an accident and as luck would have it, that's the day she didn't have an extra underwear or a liner and nothing was outside. But she just felt like, oh my God, can people smell it? Like you just feel like defeated and when you're trying to go into, put your point down for something, it's difficult to bring your.
Your best self. Yeah. Difficult to bring your whole self. Yeah. When you're not feeling like it. Right. And and that's sort hit me. Incontinence made her lose her project.
Painful Intimacy
Surabhi: And the same thing with painful intimacy, right? Because if you had a bad night, or if you had a bad, you know, situation and you feel broken and you feel like, wow, your relationship's on the line because of what happened, your work is gonna be impacted the next day, everything's, your parenting's gonna be impacted.
So we are dealing with things often we talk about pelvic health. People don't understand the importance of it [00:13:53] until it happens to them. Right. When you're young, you're like, yeah, whatever. You leak a little bit. I leak when I run. No problem. But it's not just the running now, it starts to impact other aspects of your life and it, it can completely change how a person feels about themselves.
Darshana: It definitely, and then we know that painful sex usually is the tip of the iceberg. Yes. Right. Painful sex is, is your body telling you, I cannot welcome joy right now and, and then you have to think about why. Right? Yes. Like, and people think it's about sex. People often try to undermine it with, uh, there's more to a relationship than sex.
And of course there is. Of course there is. We're not trying to boil down a relationship for that matter. We're not trying to boil down intimacy to To penetrate
Surabhi: penetration. Yeah.
Darshana: Yeah. Like intimacy has so many different things. Right. And I, I, this is often how I describe it to patients, that intimacy is like a pizza.
You know, somebody cuts the pizza unevenly. Some people [00:14:53] have a bigger pizza, spiritual intimacy. Some people have a bigger piece of intellectual intimacy. Some people have the biggest piece of sexual intimacy. So, and some people, it's the tiniest piece.
Sexual Shame
Darshana: So we're not indicating that the strength of your relationship depends on sexual intimacy, but at the same time, if that's how you feel loved or cared or safe, You shouldn't be judged for that either.
Yes. Particularly women like Yes. Particularly South Asian cultures. Oh my gosh. Yeah. We were raised to be good girls. I mean there is so much between not ever thinking about sex to, to good girls. There's so much. There is so much in between. And unfortunately we live in a binary world. Yes. They're either a good girl or a bad girl.
Yes, right. Unfortunately, we live in a world that is delivering modesty, uh, but it's actually delivering shame as modesty. Right. Shame is just covered as modesty. Good cultured girl from good [00:15:53] homes, don't do that. Yes, you cover
Surabhi: your sh like cover your shoulders. You're like, now shoulders are sexual. Like, what is, what are we talking about here?
Um, yeah. And I feel like that's where that part that you're talking about, it's not just the painful sex, it's also understanding the person behind that, their culture and how their culture impacts their belief system and their sexual experiences or their pelvic health experiences.
Painful Sex
Surabhi: Can you talk about, first of all, what is painful sex?
Describe that in general so that people who are listening are like, do I have this?
Darshana: Yeah. So, um, sex means different things to different people. I know this is news for some people. Cause when we say sex in a very normal heteronormative word, we use penis and vagina. Pow, pow, pow, right? So for the purposes of the conversation here, when I say sex, I'm talking about penetrated penis and vagina sex.
Unwanted pain during penetrative sex, can be a healthcare condition. If you want pain, [00:16:53] it's if that's a component of pleasure for you. If there is the 60th shade of gray for you, you do, you boo like no judging. But if it is an unwanted pain, That usually is telling us that something is happening, which is making you feel an unpleasant sensation, and then that's not normal.
And what I mean by that is that can be sorted out. We have cultured people to think sex is normal, and as a result, we're not asking for help for this entirely treatable. Health condition, it's, it's a treatable health problem. We have made painful sex more than what it needs to be. It has become like this stigma.
It has become this harsh thing. It has become this thing nobody talks to. You know, you throw in a little bit of patriarchy and good sex actually means you are nice and tight. You've been a good girl, so it's a good thing. And there is so much earth grossness, like just, oh
Surabhi: no. [00:17:53] And like even just even talking about all of that, we.
We don't even state in our bodies to enjoy the sexual experience because so much of our belief systems and what society's told us is in the experienced sexual experience with us. So if you're having pain with sex, it's not just here and now, it's also you and your whole mental, you know, your emotional status.
Everything comes the bag, the whole baggage comes with you. And I find that a lot of people who have painful sex, who have maybe mild pain, and they're like, eh, it's not that bad. It's not that bad. But if you had mild pain every time you pooped, every time you peed, every time you ate, like those are signs that something might be off.
Right. And we don't wanna ignore that and we can get help, whether it's mild or severe pain, cuz so often people are coming in, have severe pain. But it started off, Hmm, it wasn't that bad before and now it's gotten worse. So no matter what level of pain you have with penetration mm-hmm. Or with arousal or with anywhere in your vulva outside inside, there is support for [00:18:53] this.
Darshana: There definitely is, and a lot of times, uh, uh, the lack of knowledge, not just in general public, but also in medical community doesn't help. Yes. Um, and to that, my advice is if something hurts enough for you to feel like you're bracing for it, that's not normal. Right. If something hurts enough where you are stressed about it, like your partner rubs your shoulder a certain menu, they're like, oh my god.
I know what's coming next if, if that's happening, that it doesn't have to be that way. It can be fixed. Right. If you think, and it's intuitive right? To think I just gotta give it more time. Yes. You know, in certain cultures, and if particularly if you're waited to be intimate, it feels like, okay, I'm waited all this time, years old, this is the first time I'm part of it is, yeah, maybe you need to give it time.
The the room with that is if every subsequent time, your experience is getting better. Probably time is solving it, but if it is not, and if you think all you need is more time, if time is gonna fix it, it it would have. It would have. Right. And [00:19:53] just generally, anytime we say, you know, what can go bad, any statement that starts with that, usually something usually a lot.
Yeah. So it is not uncommon for me to, uh, see patients for painful who've. For 10 years, 15 years for as long as I've had it. Right. Yeah. And then that begs me to ask them, then why are you here now? Cause I'm not judging you, I'm holding you. If it took you 10 years to finally ask, I get it. But I wanna know your life was busy yesterday.
It is busy today. Your sex was painful yesterday. Your sex was painful today. What changed today? Yes. Like what happened today? What was that thing? And often, believe it or not, it's when people want babies. So then the question is, do you want to get pregnant or do you want to have pain free intercourse? [00:20:53] Yes. We can go into a whole new discussion with that.
But point being, uh, sometimes people feel like they need to justify. They're, yes. Taking care of this. Like, I wanna get pregnant, so I guess I have to solve this problem. Right? Yeah. And, and who's holding back this permission? These are grown people who should be in charge of their health. What's holding this permission to take care of their sexual wellbeing is what else lives in their brain?
The cultural beliefs, the religious beliefs, the societal beliefs, whatever else that lives there that they didn't necessarily consciously subscribe to. Yeah,
Surabhi: and you know, especially in a supportive relationship, like there are, there are some bad abusive relationships that can make that situation worse, where the person feels like they're being controlled or they're, they have to hide their pain because their partner doesn't care.
So in those scenarios, you, it makes sense. Wow, this person waited cuz they literally did not feel safe to access, support and [00:21:53] help. And unfortunately that happens more often. Yeah. Than we, we like, you know, ideally it never happened to anybody, but then there's also the other side where the partner is supportive and the partner is patient and then you're like, but you're still not getting the help that you need.
Religion & Sex
Surabhi: And it, I think it goes back to what you said with what's going on in our brains with the years, the decades of baggage that we have from our society, our culture from patriarchy. Yeah. From, you know, racial things that come up, you know, that impact us. So can you talk about how, um, religion. And how cultural aspects of this impact sexual dysfunction.
Darshana: So there is a lot of, um, data around it for, uh, Christianity as a religion cuz a lot of research has been done in Christian women. Uh, and we can draw so many parallels from that because it is a very sensitive topic. On many levels, yes. It's a difficult conversation to bring up because [00:22:53] anytime you're talking about people's belief system, be it their culture, be it their religion, it creates a value system that is so close that it becomes a part of your identity.
Right? Anytime something challenges. Identity that you have adopted for yourself, right? Like maybe I think I'm a good girl, so now that's a part of my identity. What goes in that definition of good girl is what I heard from
Surabhi: growing up. Yes. Yes,
Darshana: from my friends, from my parents, from my, you know, institution of faith or from movies or from whatever else, right?
Yes. I may not know that that's what I attribute the identity to. It's a, it's a subconscious thing. It's a belief system, and now you marry the love of your life. You waited till you were officially married, so you did all the good girl things. You waited till your every in-law and every parent approved of this situation.[00:23:53]
So now technically this is ordained, right? This, this union is. God is
Surabhi: Okay. Blessed by everybody. Yeah. Yeah.
Darshana: Right. Yeah. And everybody's already asking you about grandkids, so everybody really wants you to have sex. Right? Right. And yet, yes,
Surabhi: suddenly, suddenly that becomes really important. Everybody's business,
Darshana: of course.
Right. Uh, and that's, if you think about different religions and different cultures around the world, there's different language, but the concept is same. Yes. Where, uh, sexual pleasure, um, is bad. For women, it's not even discussed, right? No. No. Sex and sexual pleasure. That word doesn't. It's for pleasing the, the husband, and that's the words they use, pleasing the husband.
Right? And as a result, what starts to happen is, um, a, women are very passive in that whole process because we were raised to think that you're not supposed to know about it. He'll know what to do. And chances are, if your partner grew up in a similar culture, they're equally clueless. [00:24:53] Yeah,
Surabhi: so these are they.
They probably never even learned like female anatomy, vulva like clit. They don't even know what the clitoris chances are. Yeah, yeah.
Darshana: So it's a overall negative experience, but what part of your brain kicks in at that point is a game changer. Cause your brain might be feeling shame, your brain might be feeling, now I'm no longer a good girl, right?
So the feelings that you are getting are of grief, guilt, shame. And none of that goes with pleasure.
Psychology of Painful Sex
Darshana: Like what happens when you are feeling negative feelings of grief, guilt, and shame, your sympathetic nervous system fires in, right? That's our threat response. Everybody's body shows threat differently. And what we see for people experiencing penetrative pain, their body shows threat by clenching.
Yeah. Yeah. And now we get from psychology, we get to physiology. If your muscle is clenching, And you're trying to shove something in it. Cause we think, okay, I just gotta power through this. Yeah. [00:25:53] And
Surabhi: it'll just push through the pain. It'll get better.
Darshana: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, what did your brain learn? Your brain learned that the amount of clenching I did wasn't enough to prevent this penetration.
Your brain also learned penetration is pain. Your brain probably also learn partner is equal to pain. Yes. Depending on how full your bucket was, this might be the drop that spilled everything over, right? Yeah. So particularly this is harder and it faster for people with any history of trauma, any history of any anxiety, ocd, any other psychological stressors.
Yes, but also, Physical stressors if somebody broke their tailbone. If somebody has recurrent yeast infection, if somebody has endometriosis. So it's not all in your head. Right? Like Yeah. Stressors can be ibs and bloating stressors can be so
Surabhi: many medical conditions. Yeah. Or even like growing up, supporting a parent with a medical condition, like there's, there's so many ways that trauma and stress [00:26:53] impact our bodies and.
Well, I love that example of like the drop that spills the bucket because we often just see the spill over and we think it's new, or we think it's just that, but what we don't realize is, is, or is all the stuff that filled the bucket beforehand, that also matters, right?
Darshana: Correct. Yeah. That's usually the one that is, that needs to be cleaned up, right?
Uh, yeah. And, and then now we're talking about next time this happens, your brain has just one job. To protect you. Protect you. That's it. Wants to protect you. And you know, I like to talk to patients like your brain is a dramatic, overbearing mom. It likes to overreact like next time it will clench up the muscles before even anything touches the vulva and it will clench faster and it'll clench stronger.
Right. And then next time it will clench when there's nothing related to penetration is going [00:27:53] on. Like you were stressed at work, vagina is squeezing. You had an argument with a husband, vagina is squeezing. You go to a doctor to get your speculum check. Vagina lives in your throat. Right? So as much as it may feel like it's an isolated sex scene, pelvic floor issue.
Yeah. Usually isn't because it's a nervous system issue. I, I keep trying to tell people it's a nervous system issue for people whose nervous system is constantly living here because of personality or because of their world. It's harder for your nervous system to suddenly feel like, all right, let me forget all of my stressors and enjoy this awesome sex.
Surabhi: Well, and there's an element of before you can experience pleasure, you need to be present in your body. You need to be rested, you need to be calm in order to be present enough to be like, oh yeah, this feels good. And when we're high stress women, high anxiety, and often women of color also bear an increased burden of living in a [00:28:53] world where.
There's racism and you're marginalized even more so you have all of this burden on you. It can be harder for you to be like, oh, now I'm gonna just. Be present and enjoy this, this moment. So it's like all of it, you know, intersects. And this is why, for those who are listening who maybe have painful sex, don't think that there's a quick, I don't wanna say there's no quick fix, but don't just Google a random solution and be like, oh, I'll just try Kegels, or I'll just try this by myself.
Please get support because we are trained to look at the whole big picture and to. Interview you in a way where you, you tell us the answer yourself by us asking the right questions, right. And Right. Don't feel like you have to just move through this journey by yourself.
Darshana: Yeah. And there is so much help around, now there's so many more pelvic PTs Oh, yeah.
Around the world. And, you know, um, I, I wanna speak to the audience that's listening in, in both ways. Some people, uh, are very data driven. There is a [00:29:53] tremendous amount of data that shows us that penetrative pain happens in one in five women in the US That is 20% one in five, right? That is. Which is a lot. Yeah. That is one outta your five friends doubled over in pain or one out of your five friends who is having relationship issues cause they can't communicate about sexual pain.
But that number is as high as 64% in South Asian and Indian women, what is it?
Surabhi: 64?
Darshana: 64%. That's a high number. Right? And that is women who are reporting it. Yeah. You know, please take into account that not everybody has a supportive relationship. Not everybody just in life. They are placed in an environment where they may not be allowed to have an opinion, even when it is their healthcare.
Surabhi: Even when they're asked, they might not, they might lie about it. Yeah.
Darshana: They might, they're, I hate to use this word, but in many situations, women are disposable. Some of these [00:30:53] research that is done in India, sometimes women are in an unsafe relationship because biggest reason of divorce in India, and one of the research articles I read was Vaginismus, not vaginismus.
They used divorce un consumated relationships. Oh my gosh. Wow. So when, when you are, it is so easy for me to talk about this right now. Where I am in my life and where I'm sitting right now. But if I was doing this podcast and seeing the word vagina 55 times sitting in my home in Mumbai, I'm pretty would've been aware of who's in the room.
That is cultural influence, you know, you, you are still a part of that identity. I, I, if there was an unknown uncle that I hadn't seen in 10 years who was sitting in my living room and I was talking sex like 55 times, I would still talk, but I would be very aware.
Surabhi: Yeah, you would be aware of how you're speaking and what you're saying.
And I think that's the, I just, [00:31:53] you know, I had a patient this week and it was a similar thing as. I don't want people to shame themselves for having shame or feel like, oh, I'm, you know, it's, it's like you, you feel double the guilt because you feel guilty about feeling guilty. You feel double the shame because you feel ashamed about being ashamed.
So just recognize that your situation is what it is. Your past is what it is. You can, you can determine the present and the future by getting the support that you need. When you feel safe to do so. Nobody can tell you this is the time to get help if you physically don't feel safe. If you are emotionally, don't feel safe and financially if you can't afford it.
So don't feel like it has to be figured out today if it's, if you're not at the point where you can figure it out today, it's okay. There's help for you whenever you're ready.
Darshana: That that is so kind. So thank you for saying that. It was just beautifully said and it was very kind because a lot of the times people know they have a problem.
People know this can get better. They just don't have the bandwidth. Cause [00:32:53] there might be something else going on. They might be looking after a aging parent, they might be on the cusp of getting fired. There's so many things. So much. Yeah, and, and the guilt you talked about is real. Like I had a patient use the word.
Fraud feminist. And you know, it has become like a joke between us. And yeah, that's because we had one of those like conversations about this is a very well-to-do patient, very educated, has resources, lives in Seattle, we could be best friends in another context. We've so much in common. And so I asked her, well, what took you so long?
You guys have been married for eight years? Like, and how'd you finally find me? Cause you know, who sent you to me.. Husband, and this is my third patient. Like when, when this conversation happened, she was my third patient at the time where her husband found me on Instagram. Wow. Looked me up, scheduled the appointment, drove the wife here, and husband was sitting outside and I invited the husband inside to like, do you have any [00:33:53] questions?
And you know, it was a little awkward for husbands in this case, but three and all three of them, Indian husbands, both husband, wife, work tag, both of them stress. Like I see this problem a lot and that made me question, you could have used Instagram. You could have Googled painful sex. Yeah, you could have done, you had access to the same resources, and that goes back to being cultured as a woman.
Maybe cultured as an immigrant, maybe cultured as a girl. I don't know which part of your cultural upbringing. Factored into it, but it always does. Like was that the permission? That the point, yeah,
Surabhi: because maybe some, for some women, maybe they need their husbands to feel like, well, he takes the lead sexually, so he has to take the lead.
If, if this matters to him, then you know, it's, it's up to him. Yeah. And it can go both ways cuz some people might think, oh wow. Like, oh, the husband only cares about sex, that's why he's doing that. But at the same time, it's often a part of intimacy, right? And
Darshana: Yes. Yes, yes. And [00:34:53] you know, the same situation can be interpreted in so many ways, right?
It can, yeah. And only you know, if you're feeling loved for, cared for, it's, it's, even little babies know when they're being loved for. So in a relationship, you know, if your partner is doing this outta care or whatever other. Ulterior motive, right? Yes. Uh, the good part of this situation is I was very happy that finally Indian men, finally brown boys, are looking into female sexual health.
So that's a win. And
Surabhi: then, and you know what? I have friends now through dance. And I had, you know, he's, I say he's a kid cuz he's like 15 years younger than me. He's still an adult. But he messaged me, he's like, Hey, one of my friends just got married, one of his female friends and is, uh, very afraid to have sex.
Can she message you? And I said, that is a very caring friend because his friend didn't know me and his friend follows me, but didn't wanna message me directly. And I was like, please, yes. Like I think that we underestimate the younger, you know, [00:35:53] Generations. And I think that the same brown men grew up with the same patriarchal and they, they saw the problems in their households.
Right. Especially if there was abuse, especially if there was like women being treated poorly and they're like, I don't like this. And I think there is a new generation of brown boys and men
Darshana: definitely just doing better and shout out to them like, I'm really impressed. I We have hope.
Surabhi: Exactly. That's how I feel too.
I was like, wow, I have so much hope for this next generation. Um, You know, you're so right. There's this shame and, you know, I had some pain with sex before I had kids, but it was so mild that I was just like, eh, it doesn't matter. And if I had only gotten help, then cuz I had incontinence with l running, I, I had pelvic, like I had too much tension, high stress, anxiety, you know, it all ties in together and we don't think it matters enough until it does.
And for me it was. You know, postpartum and all the, all the pregnancy, like you said, pregnancy, postpartum issues, right? So [00:36:53] I just wish that women knew that they matter, even when they're not producing babies, that their pleasure matters, even just because their pleasure matters, right? Like, period, end of sentence.
It doesn't matter only for certain people or, you know, if you're young or if you're a certain body type. Um, people often think, oh, it's my weight. And I'm like, no, it's not your weight. It's not your size, it's not your shape. It's not because you don't exercise enough, right? There's, um, there's no reason to have pain with that, but you're, your brain, your nervous system is creating this situation for you.
So how can we best support it,
Darshana: right? I mean, it, it, and it does get better. We, we know research shows that pelvic rehabilitation works in all of these conditions, even when you're the same weight.
Surabhi: Exactly. Even with no changes in your weight, health status,
Darshana: nothing else. And I mean, there are three things to look at.
One, it will stop it from getting worse. Yeah, okay. It will get better. And three, [00:37:53] you will look back on time and realize, oh, I could have done this sooner. I should. So many times patients will tell me, my doctor gave me a prescription for PT like three years ago. I just never got around to it. And then they felt bad for never getting around to.
Who wants that extra guilt?
Pleasure Matters
Surabhi: Don't, yeah, don't guilt yourself. It just, I'm happy you're here now that you're here. Yep. Um, and I understand why it's not the biggest priority because women have never been told that their pleasure matters. So why would we suddenly care and make it a priority? And so that's why the advocacy that, you know, we do online, I think does matter because people do spend more time on social media these days.
And so hopefully they're getting the message over and over again that their pleasure does matter. You know, even if you're single and you are like, Wearing a tampon hurts. This is the time. You know, get the support that you need because it is, um, Once you start working with somebody, it's actually fairly simple, you know, like they just need the education, the awareness, the, the mindset, the whole, the whole thing.
It's, it's all treatable.
Darshana: It's just, [00:38:53] for some people it's just literally sex education. That's what they need. Cause there's a lot of fear. Around it. And that's making everything worse for some people. If there's a medical condition, there is a different route there. Yes. But Right. But sometimes you'd be surprised how easy it's, and I'm not trying to indicate painful sex is a quick fix.
No, but I'm also telling you it could be, it be what's causing painful sex, you know? Um, it's actually very scary, very intimidating. And you know, I'm sure Surabhi you will relate to that. And I too, as a pelvic pt, we understand that. Are feeling very scared, very vulnerable. The last thing you wanna do is go to somebody you've never met and talk about all the intimate, private details Yeah.
Of your life. We get it. We get it. So don't feel scared that you are gonna go in for a vaginal exam. Right pelvic, it's not
Surabhi: like the doctor's office with the giant speculum and like sterile. And I always, because I work, I'm, I'm all telehealth, so [00:39:53] it's really like I give people the control over their own bodies and I think people want that control cuz they're so used to being treated as.
This hole that everybody inserts things into, but you are the, you own the hole, right? It's your body. So learning to touch yourself, learning to give yourself pleasurable sensation or comfortable sensation to start with. You know, it's all very empowering and I think that. Once people actually do the first assessment, they immediately are at ease.
It's the anticipation and the fear of even getting there that often stops people. So that's why like I love this podcast cause I feel like people will listen to it. Hopefully if you're listening to this, share it with your girlfriends, share it with your friends. Cuz one in five in US, Canada probably has a similar statistic.
Canada has fewer stats generally for these things, so we just. Piggyback off American STA stats, but if you're South Asian, 64% of that we know, right? Yeah. So if you're experiencing this, don't feel like you're alone. You are not. You are unfortunately not alone with this. But [00:40:53] you know, fortunately too, because there's help,
Darshana: there're definitely, and it's not your fault like a lot, and it's never your fault.
I can't say that enough that this is not your fault. This is a treatable health condition. And it can be treated remotely. Like so many people do this te telehealth wise. So it's not really, you know, if you feel like what's getting in the way is finding somebody and getting there. There are so many remote resources, right?
Yes. The other thing is the overwhelm. People feel like, oh, last time I went to pt, cuz people have some frame of reference. Right? Like, my husband had ACL injury and then he went to PT or hurt his back Yeah. Pt. So they have some preconceived notion of they're gonna give me 30 minutes of exercises for every day. I don't have that kind of time.
Yeah. Right. So, Just go and learn to communicate and come back with what fits in your life. It may not look like 30 minutes, right?
Surabhi: It usually doesn't, cuz trust me, my postpartum clients, they don't have 30 minutes. [00:41:53]
If I, if I give them overwhelming stuff, they'll look at me like, what? And I, I don't, because we've been there and I know it's just not realistic.
And frankly speaking, I want you to do the bare minimum. You need to, to get better. I don't want you to do yes the most.
Darshana: Yes,
Surabhi: do the least and get better. By doing the least because I know your life is full and I don't want you to just feel like, oh, I have to do all of these, everything all the time. Right.
The Girlfriend's Guide to Pain Free Sex
Surabhi: Tell me about your, cuz I know you're writing a book, which is, I. So exciting, which you've already written actually.
Darshana: Yes, it's done. And my, um, editor has locked me out of that document cuz every time I try to go back I change something. I know. Like, Nope, nope, we're done. I can't keep, yeah. Changing the password on this thing.
Surabhi: Always go back, back and edit stuff. I'm sure.
Darshana: You know, you learn every day. It's like, oh, I wanna put this right. Anyway, so my book is coming out this summer, super excited. Uh, the name of the book is The Girlfriend's Guide to Pain Free Sex, and it's [00:42:53] my four pillar framework. Um, so sort of like DIY vaginismus mistreatment.
And while this book can be used in multiple ways, the primary one is if you're experiencing painful penetration. And for whatever multiple reasons currently, you don't have the bandwidth to go see somebody for it. This book is a great place to start. Okay. If you know someone might be having some issues, this is a great book to give to them.
If you are someone who be like, what? There are muscles down there. If this is the first time you're hearing about muscle, uh, uh, this is a book for you. Cause there'll be a lot of information about, um, not only just addressing pain, but how to have better sex. Like how to have, uh, better intimacy, not necessarily just sex.
Right? So this book is a reflection of sort of my, um, My value system, if you will, in the sense that, like I said, I help busy people. [00:43:53] Most of my patients look alike, meaning they're busy, they have certain kind of personality, they have certain energy kinda, yeah. So, you know, I always jokingly tell my patients, your mess becomes your message, which is what has happened to me.
I am type A, I'm anxious. I'm always doing 55 things. I never have time, you know? So my treatments are, I can relate.
So this is the four pillar framework, which means basically, I call it my plan B, what do you need to do for your brain? What do you need to do for your breathing? What do you need to do for your body? And what do you need to do for your bottom right? Mm-hmm. And then we start to build this Rolodex of all the things that help your brain, all the things that might be in your brain that are causing this.
All the things that are in your body. Like tight hip muscles, right? Yeah. Or all the things that are in your bottom like tight pelvic floor, or how are you [00:44:53] breathing or how are you not breathing? What does that have to do with this? So we start building this long list of like tools under each of that framework.
And then you get to pick, do you have time to go through the full gamut today? Or do you have time to go for one? Because often we get stuck into this bind of I will do everything or I will do nothing. Yeah. Like people call it all or nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But pick one. So that way you feel like I'm on a streak and I didn't break it, and I cannot tell you how many times there be patients just get so good at it.
They learn what helps my body and they immediately pick their one thing. I call it the one thing, right? Like what's the one thing that helps you? Do that, you know? Yeah. Is it ideal? No. Maybe we can sit here and get into technicalities and say how everybody must do relaxation exercises, but is doing something better than not doing anything?
Surabhi: Listen, many of my clients, the one thing that helps them [00:45:53] is so simple and it's almost like embarrassing. It's just drinking more water. Like literally my one client, she'd seen two pelvic PTs spend thousands of dollars and she was like, oh, your rates are more expensive than my other PTs. And I'm like, I know, but you're gonna get better faster.
And so she booked in the first day. We figured out, I'm like, you're not drinking enough water. And you know, there's a couple other things. Strengthening, you know, relaxation. Next time, she's like, yeah, my leaks are gone. My urgency's gone. I'm like, mm-hmm.
Darshana: Mm-hmm. That's concentrated. Urine is a bladder irritant.
Not many people. Exactly. And so
Surabhi: sometimes it is the one thing that's, there's other things that she had to do, but that was the biggest. Biggest thing, right? And so I love that you break it down like that. And I, I think that's empowering even if you don't have vaginismus or even if you had it and you're better now.
I think just learning about your body and understanding yourself better is always a good thing. And I often think like I'm in my late thirties, like, I have God, you know, God willing and [00:46:53] all that many, many more decades ahead of me. So why not learn more about myself and get to know what my body. Likes and dislikes and what it needs.
Darshana: Correct. Yeah. And you know, I feel like in some ways people who are having painful sex have given up hope on like great sex. So nobody's coming here and telling me I want to have awesome sex. People are telling me I don't wanna hurt. So when you are sort of in that mind frame, you don't even think what is possible for you.
And that's understandable. You have reached a point where you are like, forget about great sex. As long as I don't cringe and cry when I'm having sex, I'm good.
Surabhi: Or like as long as I'm actually able to even, right. Some people are like, I just wanna be able to, and I'm like, that's the first step and then let's expand on that.
Right? Correct.
Darshana: Yeah. And you know, like brain learns with experience, it doesn't learn with education, right? Like if you do one thing and you're consistently able to do it, you're gonna feel motivated to do two things. Yes. And three things, right? Like, uh, so I found that it not only gives people hope, but it also makes it just, [00:47:53] and you know, like my people are like me when I tell them one thing, they will email them.
Is there anything else I can do? Oh, I know. Yeah, you, yes, you can. But I'm choosing not to give you that anything else, because we all fall in that, right? Like I have a long to-do list and I'm not getting through to it. So what's my great genius plan? I guess I just need to get up 30 minutes sooner. So I just added one more thing my to my already.
Surabhi: Yeah. And we know that lack of sleep also exacerbates pain, so you know. Yeah. Tension, cortisol, all that stuff. So I agree. And. Like going back to like, less is more, right? Like sometimes small changes are more sustainable and they actually are more impactful. So I love this. Your book comes out this summer.
I I will, do you have a link to it? Cuz I, I would love to share it with my show notes when you do, if you don't have it now, that's okay. I do, I
Darshana: do have a link, uh, that I can share with you, uh, and people. Perfect. I have on the [00:48:53] first day when it goes, uh, live, it will be a free download, so people should sign up for it.
If they wanna get that email. That free download is gonna be available only to the first hundred people, and I so far have 67. So if you're interested in a free download of a book on how to handle pain-free sex, you are welcome to sign up on that link. And I also have a little something for your listeners.
Um, amazing. Just sort of like a public service announcement. These are things that people. With Pelvis should know this book is written for, um, people with vulvas who identify as women. Just cuz that's my primary, uh, clientele. I, I was, I just wanna make sure that that book was meant for a certain population and, and I have a different one for more inclusive words, but if you're interested in just getting like, What do I need to know?
Tell me all the things. Nothing's wrong with me. Nothing's leaking, nothing's hurting. But what is the normal thing? So this is my pelvic psa, and the best way to get it is to text the word PSA, as in public service announcement. PSA [00:49:53] to the number 33777 I'm gonna repeat this. Text the word PSA to the number 33777.
Whoa. This is like high tech. You can just do. So I usually do that at speaking events where it's easier than having people, you know, like write down on, on a
Surabhi: website. Yeah, absolutely.
Darshana: But this book has all the things that you should know about your pelvic floor, all the common mistakes people make in the bathroom, and all like the, my number one thing that I see, uh, people doing wrong with when it comes to core.
Uh, so hopefully you find that helpful. And that book also has a traffic light test. Essentially you take that test and if you're at a red light, your pelvic floor needs some attention. Mm-hmm. If you're at a green light, you're doing great. Tell me how.
Surabhi: Yes. Amazing. I will share the links to both of those and the, the thank you PSA number.
Not Without My Daughter
Surabhi: Um, and I have a few questions for you before we wrap up today. Yeah. I, I would [00:50:53] love to find out what is a book or podcast that you listen to or read that's been life changing? Or if life changing is too big, just something that's been impactful.
Darshana: Um, I, there are many books that I would call very influential in my life, but if I have to go to like life changing, when I was very young, I read this book called, not Without My Daughter.
It's a book about a mother stuck in a foreign country and her journey of against all odds. Saving her daughter and, you know, finding a safe rescue. This is an American woman who is stuck in some part of the world. That book as a young child was just, I, I grew up with a single mother. So I have a whole perspective on single parents, but single mothers.
And so that book definitely resonated with me about a mother's love for her daughter. And even today, I just have a soft spot for. [00:51:53] Motherless mothers like myself, um, uh, that book I would call, I, it didn't gimme any life-changing wisdom, but I don't know why. It just had you feel connected to it. Yeah, probably cuz it resonated with my story so much.
I Think Again
Darshana: Um, second book, I would call that as an adult, made a difference in my life, I think again by Adam Grant. It was a great book. Um, just, it helped me face my biases as I was going through my own. Personal development. Uh, yes. In a clinical journey. , yeah, that is what actually helped me go on this search, and I found a great mentor and I, I'm just a different, professionally, a different person.
Surabhi: Um, amazing. I loved his book too.
The Huberman Lab
Darshana: Yeah. Yeah. So those are my books podcast wise. I'm blanking on the name, but the, the, the neurology podcast, Andrew Huberman, Huberman, the Huberman lab. That's, cause I'm very data driven. I'm also a researcher currently, so I'm trying to get more familiar with the language of data and just, I'm all about the nervous system.
So, that podcast [00:52:53] is, Whenever I have time, that's the podcast I'm listening to.
Personal Care
Surabhi: Nice. Tell me about three things that you do for yourself, for self-care, for personal care every day to help yourself feel your best.
Darshana: Yeah. Um, I do have some of them. My first one is every day I get up and drink a full 16 ounce cup of hot water.
Uh, it's just to say, I, I love hot beverages. Um, I define it very soon.
Surabhi: You know, you're Indian when, right. So we always drink in the warm water. Yeah.
Darshana: Yeah. Um, and you know, previously it used to be like I would fill it up and forgot to drink and in my car, like, oh my God, forgot whatever. I've realized that.
It is important for my mind to start, right? So every morning I sit, I actually put my bum down on a surface that is meant for sitting and enjoy my full, uh, 16 ounces of water cup. And, um, I don't do anything until then. I don't check my emails. I don't respond to mommy mommy. I don't do nothing. Um, it doesn't take that long to finish [00:53:53] your glass of water, but that gives me some, uh, false sense of control on my life that is important to me, So that's my one thing.
It's very little, but it really helps me. Um, second thing that I do when I get at work, um, that has helped my sanity a lot. I have just like most of you, I have many hats. You know, I'm a mom, I'm a business owner, I'm a clinician. I'm a this and I'm a that. So every morning when I get to work, um, I look at all the things I'm supposed to do and pick the one thing.
Cause you know, I'm all about the one thing, right? I pick the one thing. That if I do that today, that will make the most difference. And of course, every day it's a different thing. Some days it is posting on Instagram, some days it is replying to that email. Some days it is reading an article. You know, there's that one thing.
The hope is I get to all the things. Yes. But just, but the reality is, yeah. You know, like I just don't wanna drop the glass ball when there are too many balls in the air. You just wanna know which one you [00:54:53] don't wanna drop. Right? Yeah. Um, that's my second thing. And then the third thing is I, I draw, I, um, nice.
My kid likes drawing and I like drawing, so, That's our, it's so interesting. Um, when my daughter started to get into drawing, she would say things like, mommy, do you wanna draw with me? And every time we were drawing, she would tell me about, so she was having a rough day, but it only comes out in a way that, mommy, would you draw with me?
And a couple of times that happened and I realized, oh my God. Kids don't talk like grownups. Right. She's not gonna come and tell me I need to talk about how such and such snatched a toy away from me. Like in her world, that's like the biggest thing. Right? Uh, but she does easily say that when we are drawing together.
Mm. Wow. That's beautiful. You know, we draw one page together, that's our thing, and that's when we, you know, my husband calls it, are you guys a gossiping again? I'm like, yeah. we are
Surabhi: it's like drawing therapy. Right. It's like you're chatting, you're like finding out about That's actually really beautiful.
Darshana: And it's hilarious cuz [00:55:53] she tells me all the little scoop in her little kindergarten life.
And uh, and if her dad like asks the follow up question, she just gives him the eye like, who made you think you're a part of this conversation? It's like,
Surabhi: oh my gosh, I love that. Kids are so funny. At that age, my daughter's in. J j k h too. So yeah, gives me the scoop. My, my younger one is, he doesn't tell me anything, so I'm like, she's the gossip
she, she tells me all the scoop. He does. Literally doesn't tell me anything. But, um, okay. So tell me something that you are really passionate about right now. We've been talking about vaginismus and pelvic pain and, uh, painful sex. So is that your thing? What else are you passionate about right now? Um,
Darshana: Number one thing I'm passionate about is painful sex in South Asian women.
That has driven my career. I am doing many things in that area, as you know. Love it. Um,
Growing Your Small Business
Darshana: currently on the front burner is what interests me in terms of knowledge is [00:56:53] small businesses, how to own a small business. Cuz I, this year started my, uh, private clinic and Amazing. Congrats. Thank you. But there's a steep learning curve with huge, you know, like clinicians like you and me, we, we were.
We were almost given all the knowledge to be a clinician and zero knowledge.
Surabhi: Zero for business.
Darshana: Yeah. Yeah. Zero. Yeah. And so truthfully, right now I just need to learn how to sell myself in terms of a business, um, uh, you know, thinking So
Surabhi: market yourself and get your word out and that kind of thing.
Darshana: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that, that this year has been about that learning, um, the little things that come with owning a small business. Nice. Yeah, that's what I'm passionate about right now.
Surabhi: And if you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?
Darshana: I would make it more inclusive from the very beginning. And in some ways I am disheartened by what's going on everywhere in the world.
And in some ways I have so much hope. Cause just the way my daughter talks, um, I agree. She never, kids are, yeah. Like when she talks about her friends, she [00:57:53] never says he or she. And I'm like, oh. And she was telling her grandma about something and her grandma like, is this a boy or a girl? She's like, I know I didn't ask.
So, you know, so much hope. Um, typically from the next generation. I think so too. But yeah, that's the one thing I would change being included. I mean, live and let live man. Like there's too many problems. Like you do you, why are you in other people's business?
Surabhi: I know. Stop trying to control other bodies and just mm-hmm.
Yeah, I agree. Kids give me hope every day. Um, tell me what your greatest mom strength is.
Darshana: Greatest mom strength. Um, It changes every day. Uh, right now it is becoming figure outing. Um, you know, I'm running into a lot of parenting challenges that I just have to figure out for myself what's gonna work best for me. I'm just figure outing, I don't even know if that's a word, but Umm kicking ass at it.
Like I'm figure outing. Amazing. Um, yeah, [00:58:53] because, you know, and I feel like the, the process of figure outing is what's teaching my kid how to handle that. Because I've spent a lot of time getting flustered and now I'm like, okay,
Surabhi: like problem solving almost. Right? Like, let's figure out what's going on today.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a skill that you gain on the job. Like you literally, as a parent, you're like, oh, new situation. Yes, we're gonna figure out what what we do now. Right. And I, um, I get that. I'm in that, I'm in that they're right with you. Um, amazing.
Connect with Darshana
Surabhi: So where can people connect with you?
Darshana: So, um, lot of different ways.
If you downloaded any of that, you have my email address in that. That's a direct way to get like the fastest response from me. Um, you have my social handles there. So I'm at Pelvic PT again. Uh, my social game is a little lame, uh, but it's there.
Surabhi: It's all good. Yeah. Um, you do it all. You literally have. You have so much stuff going on, so, so just to spell that out, pelvic pt, g y a n.
So for people who [00:59:53] are on Instagram, TikTok or YouTube, and then what's your website?
Darshana: Uh, my name, so Dr. Darshana pelvic pt.com. That's my website. And my social media handles are pelvic pt gyan gyan means knowledge. Um, so it's not g y n as in gynecology. It is g y a n as gyan So pelvic y on any social platform.
Surabhi: Nice. And I just wanted to thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, your expertise, your passion. I think that we just shed light to a lot of topics that are often never discussed, especially by South Asians in the South Asian community. And anyone who's listening to this, um, who has painful sex, vaginismus please go get Darshana's book when it comes out and go sign up for her.
Um, Her other, her other book, P s A, uh, I'll share all the links. Connect with her if you share this or if you listen to this, share it on Instagram. Tag us both. And remember that 20% of people here [01:00:53] in North America experience painful sex. So you friends may not be telling you or talking to you about it because there's so much shame, but by you sharing content like yours and mine, people will learn that.
Oh, okay. There is help out there. Um,
Darshana: Yeah. Thank you so much Surabhi and I just wanna give you a shout out for being such a bad ass. I truly enjoy your social media content and just talking to you. I, you know, we've not had that many conversation and yet it feels like I've known you. Uh, it just feels like we have a, we have a lot in common, so thank you for, your energy is just contagious.
So thank you for all the things that you do.
Surabhi: Thank you so much. I deeply appreciate that. And for our, all our listeners, thank you so much. Lots of love to you.
Darshana: All right. Peace.
