58. Yoga: Cultural Appropriation, Racism and Power Imbalance with Jesal Parikh (Part 1)
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Dive into part one of this episode where Surabhi interviews Jesal on the cultural appropriation of yoga, racism, power imbalance and Jesal’s pregnancy journey. Learn about Jesal co-hosting the Yoga is Dead podcast.
We discuss:
Creation of Yoga is Dead podcast
Is Yoga a religion?
Spirituality in Yoga
Cultural Appropriation of Yoga and South Asian Culture
Experiencing racism as a child
Pregnancy, Gestational Diabetes Test and more
Note that this is a 2-part conversation.
Jesal Parikh Bio:
Jesal Parikh is an Indian American yoga teacher, movement educator, and podcaster. She is also an author and disruptor, who works on creative solutions for equity and yoga. She co-hosts the Yoga is Dead podcast and offers movement education through the lens of social justice. Jesal’s aim is to uplift those who are feeling isolated and marginalized by the yoga industry. You may know Jesal best from the podcast, Yoga is Dead, with episodes like White Women Killed Yoga, the podcast explores power, race, and cultural appropriation.
Connect with Jesal & Important Links:
Follow Jesal on Instagram @yogawalla
Find Jesal at https://www.yogawallanyc.com/
Resources from Jesal
Yoga is Dead Podcast: https://www.yogaisdeadpodcast.com/episodes
Act Against Appropriation Seminar: https://www.yogaisdeadpodcast.com/shop/aaa
Original Godmothers of Yoga Ebook: https://www.yogaisdeadpodcast.com/shop/original-godmothers-of-yoga-by-yoga-is-dead
Yoga is Dead Resources: https://www.yogaisdeadpodcast.com/resources
Decolonized Yoga Playlist: https://yogawallaplaylist.ck.page/6788b37607
Connect with Surabhi:
Website: https://www.thepassionatephysio.ca
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Please note that the podcast transcript below starts after the teaser and intro music so the timestamps may be off by a minute.
Surabhi: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mom's Strength. This is your host Surabhi Veitch I just sound like a squeaky mouse because I'm recovering from a cold after my kids have coughed on me all. The past two months actually held out until now, and, uh, it's finally got me.
Guest Introduction
Surabhi: But I am so excited to be interviewing Jesal Parikh from Yogawalla
she is an Indian American yoga teacher, movement educator, podcaster, author and disruptor, working on creative solutions for equity and yoga. She co-host the Yoga Is Dead podcast and offers movement education through the lens of social justice. I love that Jesal's aim is to uplift those who are up feeling isolated and marginalized by the yoga industry.
And her pronouns are she her. They or them. Hi Jesal. Welcome.
Jesal: Hi. Thanks for having me.
Surabhi: You're so welcome. I follow you on social media. I have actually, you're probably one of the first people I followed in 2020 when I actually like joined Instagram. I was on it [00:01:00] before, but it like never really on it.
And I think that's big honor. Yeah. I think I found you through the movement Maestro I think you were on.
Jesal: I love Shante. Yes.
Surabhi: She had shared your podcast and I was like, oh my gosh. Like there's people like this who exist, who are talking about this stuff that, you know, a lot of us as desi or Indians, you know, who grew up in yoga families, you feel like part of you has been taken away when you are, not even shown in the yoga world here.
And to have people who are openly talking about it is so refreshing. What can you talk about your journey into yoga? And I'm gonna mute myself so you don't hear me, so the audience isn't hearing me cough, coughing nonstop. Yeah. Um, so yeah, tell me about your journey into yoga and like what your experience, leading up to, let's say yoga Is Dead, podcast and work.[00:02:00]
Jesal: Yeah. That's a long story, but I'm here for it. Um, I know it's funny when we talk about like our experience in yoga, I think. My tendency is to wanna start at the place where I started Asana. But the reality is growing up in an Indian household, a Hindu household, my experience with yoga started way before then.
I just didn't really realize it till later, right? Because there's all this overlap and so I think. If I'm being, if I'm reflecting on the whole story, I was exposed to yoga as a kid or different elements of yoga as a kid. I had aunts that did different types of yoga. One of my aunts did like laughing yoga in India, and that was like a big trend.
Or , you'd see yogis on the street and , you know, your, your family members would talk about it and, you know, have different opinions or ideas and then, You know, we did Budin growing up. Like Budin was a huge part of our life. Every single weekend my parents did Budin and dragged us to somebody's house to be a part of it, right?
And so all of these elements were kind of around all the time. And then I would say as I started getting older, some of my [00:03:00] older family members just start doing like, braum. Or we'd go to, like, there was a family member, uh, who ran a yoga center out in Western Massachusetts.
And so like, and like this.
Surabhi: So this is in the us? Yeah,
Jesal: in the us. The us. So like, he had, he, they still exist today, by the way. They're called the Seton Center. I still get, I'm on their email list. I still get their emails. And so this was like a person in my life that is very much like, oh, you should do yoga and all the parts.
And he's very into Brian. I, um, And so I'd started like really practicing Asana, I would say, when I graduated from college and I came to New York to work and a friend of mine was like, oh, you need to come to this yoga studio. And I was never an athletic person. I never like really understood my body or had a connection with my body in any real way.
You know, I, I was in a very academic sort of lane, right? Like, study, study, study, get good grades, all that stuff. And it was never really encouraged to be , you know, physically too active, like dance class, meaning barium for us. Indian folks, same,
Surabhi: [00:04:00] same, literally the same story.
Jesal: So you learned some things from Baram.
There's overlap there too. But, uh, I started to connect with my body more when I started going to these classes. So I was very grateful that I found Asana and like, Could do some things and you know, it's like a weird experience because at this, it's accessible in some ways because it's not like fast.
It's not like lifting heavy, but in other ways you're like, I cannot bend that way and or what the teacher's telling me to do, my body just doesn't do. It doesn't make that shape. So it started out as like a pretty good experience overall. But as I started getting into it, I realized like I needed to modify or adapt or that there needed to be more wiggle room, I would say.
So. I got a lot of benefits out of it, and then there came a point where I was just like, You know, living the New York lifestyle, which is work hard, play hard, probably a little too much. And I realized like this wasn't working for me. The job I was in was not working for me. Um, you know, and it was showing up in my body in a lot of ways.
All the relationships in my life were showing [00:05:00] up in my body in a variety of ways. And I was like, something needs to give. So I decided to quit my job and I was gonna go to India anyway for a family friend's wedding. And I was like, while I'm there, I really wanted to get deeper into yoga. So I went to India and of course our family friend was like, just get your certificate.
Just get the teaching certificate. Don't worry about it. I'm like, I don't wanna teach. He's like, no, no, don't worry about it. Just get the, just do the yoga instructor. Course I did it.
Surabhi: I also feel like your story needs to be like a movie, like the whole experience growing up in New York, like living in New York.
It's common. Yeah.
Jesal: Yeah. So anyway, so I did the yoga instructor course at this, uh, yoga university in Bangalore called Za, or it's like the Swami Viv, and I'm the base school there. And I came back and I was, you know, trying to do other creative things with my life, but I decided to teach on the side just to like make some money while I was figuring out what to do.
And it turns out that was my calling, right? So, I see. You know, I started teaching little by little and then I started teaching in a studio in [00:06:00] Boston, and then I ended up meeting my husband and moving back to New York, and I decided to do more education and kind of go down that whole line. What I realized is that when you enter, well, I didn't realize right away, but when you enter the yoga industry as like a teacher, it's like a completely different experience.
You and I, I will say, I went in with blinders on. I think a lot of people do. Meaning you just kind of assume like, oh, you're not in a corporate environment and everyone here is just like love and light and wants to be happy and whatever. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Wants to do good. And you don't realize like it's a collection of small businesses with zero oversight. , and so I experienced a lot of discrimination on many different levels, right? Like racial slash ethnically. I also just experienced body discrimination. I also experienced , you know, just all sorts of marginalization because of my various identities, right? And so it was a kind of a long process of awakening to it and, [00:07:00] and like coming to terms with the fact that, oh, this industry is not what it seems to be.
You know, and then I think I was like comparing my experience to what my husband was experiencing, like corporate finance. I'm like, you're, why are you not experiencing as bad a situation like yours is supposed to be the worst industry. Like at least you know, on paper. And I'm like, every person I talk to, I feel like I'm being like harmed.
Creation of Yoga is Dead podcast
Jesal: So the podcast really came about because Tejal and I. Tejal Patel, who's the co-host of the Yoga Is Dead podcast with me, um, Tejal and I met in a training that was run by two white women, and it was an anatomy training. And we always talk about this. We get, we got catfish into the training. It was, they were a advertised as a job opening for the studio.
And then you go in and you do this interview and then they have this group interview and they basically tell you you're not good enough to be. Working there and that you have to take their training in order to work at the studio. Oh my gosh. So we kind of like fell for it and I'm, I am glad in the end I did take it and I guess it led to the podcast, [00:08:00] but in a way I'm glad that I took it because like I knew I wanted more anatomy education.
And I'll say that the education that they gave wasn't actually accurate, but it got me started on the path of like getting curious and learning about the body. And so in, in that training, I got to meet Tejal, Tejal and I. Um, instantly connected almost. So it was like almost like trauma bonding because of the way that they were treating us.
Yeah, yeah. You know, it was like three people in this training. It started out with four, I think four or five maybe. But you know, one person was online and, you know, we were two desi in a group of like, essentially three by the end. So there was like a white chick, and us two desis and then these two white women.
And the power dynamic was made super clear to us. And the value that we brought to the training was made super clear to us, which was zero. You have zero, value, your cultural understanding and background has zero place in this environment. And I think because it was such an extremely obvious environment, it [00:09:00] really like bonded Tejal and I to each other and op, but also really opened my eyes like, okay, this is like a line now that is being crossed in a new way.
And so for us, that was the beginning of just having somebody to talk to about our experiences. And, you know, at first it's like whispers like, did you hear about this? Or I have to tell you what happened at this other place I work at, or my coworker did the craziest thing. I like, I can't even believe it, I have to tell you.
Surabhi: So, and it's kind of like it's almost like if you are by yourself, It's hard to talk about it with anybody so isolated, internalize you, you feel isolated, you internalize it, but as soon as there's that one person who gets it, you're like, I feel free because I can talk about this. I don't have to internalize this, this hatred, essentially.
Yeah. Um, and for those of you who are listening who only know western yoga, which like, I don't even wanna call it yoga, but yoga's intricately tied to our cultures. To Hinduism, um, you know, to like
Jesal: to many other [00:10:00] religions, right? I'll just say Hinduism is the main one. But like my exposure, because my parents took us to every freaking temple around, right?
We went to the Jane Temple, we went to the swimmer iron temple, we went to like whatever was around even the Sikh temple. Like, so you just see that there's these underlying themes and overlap of ideas across all of these different. Ideologies that developed in the same region, you know? And, and that brings value to understanding how yoga kind of fits into this broader context.
Absolutely. And the diversity of thought.
Surabhi: Well, and that, I, I think that's the other thing is people think there's one way to do it or one way to even teach, or like one person is. And I hate the appropriation of the word guru, right? Yeah. Or like guru. I'm like, no, it's not guru. It's guru. And not everybody who teaches yoga is suddenly a guru.
And like, I don't know what region your family is from in India, but like we're South India and I grew up in Mumbai and my, I didn't realize, like you said, I didn't realize that I had [00:11:00] been learning in, uh, yoga since I was a kid, just from living. With my parents and my family. Like my dad practiced it every day because he had asthma.
So he would practice Panama and he would do all the breathing techniques. He taught it to me. So when I had a cold, I just knew it. And then years later I'm hearing about alternate nose breathing and this breathing, and I'm like, what? Like this is the stuff that. No, doesn't everybody know this? And then you realize like, oh, this is part of yoga.
So like listening to you talk, I'm just like, wow. Like there's other people who have the same experience, but you know, your voices are silenced even in, in teacher trainings. So tell me what happened after that, you know, when you two connected and then this was in New York.
Jesal: Yeah, this was in New York and we connected and we became each other's like sounding boards.
Like every few months we get together and be like, oh my God. Like tell me I'm not, you know, out of my mind in thinking that this was like, you know, you feel so gaslit in these experiences. You feel like I'm the one that's wrong. Everyone [00:12:00] else seems to think this is okay. And so I think having each other really put it into perspective that like our experience, what we were experiencing emotionally and internally is valid.
So I think that validity really like, P propelled us forward. And then honestly, so Tejal had this like retreat that she did, um, just outside of the city. It was like a weekend retreat. And I decided to go and we were having one of these conversations and she was like, we should do a podcast. And I had no idea really what podcast we, I like didn't listen to them at all at that point.
And I was like, sure, okay. And I'm thinking like, this isn't gonna go anywhere.
Surabhi: It's like one of those conversations that you're like, yeah, sure sounds good. But like nothing happens.
Jesal: But like, I dunno, we spent like a year kind of like working on it, but not really seriously. But we were like, you know, kind of working on it.
And what we realized at the end of the year was we needed to start from scratch. Like we were getting excited about the idea, but it just wasn't gelling. And then we came up with this concept, the [00:13:00] yoga is dead concept. We came up with the name and the concept of like, haha, what if we just say the things that we think are like.
Quote unquote killing yoga. Right. And that really changed the trajectory for us in terms of our focus and our like tone and everything. Because up until then, you know, you just feel like you're whispering things. You just feel like, oh, I can't, I can't say the words white women out loud. I can't say that white women are a problem in this industry out loud.
But once you give yourself permission to name your first episode, white women killed yoga Like things change.
Surabhi: absolutely love the, transparency there because like the. They did, you know, like I remember my first yoga class here. It was after, you know, a boyfriend and I broke up. I was sad.
I, I needed something. And then I was like, I, I always loved, you know, yoga. I'm like, I'll go to a class. All my friends seem to be going, my white friends. And I went to this class and I was [00:14:00] probably 25, 26 at the time. And, there was like a 19, 20 year old maybe like teaching this class, giving out life advice.
Leave all your worries at the door I'm like, um, it doesn't quite work like that. You don't just like compartmentalize your worries in a box and like put it outside and like the entire class, I felt myself getting more and more like agitated. I was the only person of color. Everybody was dressed in like a sports bra, like with as much skin exposed.
It was hot yoga too. And I felt beaten down like at the end of that class. And I remember going home and telling my dad and he was like, That's not yoga.
Jesal: Well, can I just say something about that just in a practical level? I've gone to hot yoga. I've enjoyed hot yoga in the past. Practically, practically speaking, I don't understand the, like not wearing a lot of clothes because you tend to slip and slide on your own skin.
I'm like sometimes create friction. Sorry, that's just a random aside, but I mean, I haven't never [00:15:00] understood that.
Surabhi: I feel that way with any sport where people are sweating a lot. Because if you don't have clothes, it's skin on skin rubbing, you're gonna get more rashes. And
Jesal: I'm like, it's just a complete aside.
Has nothing to do with anything. I get it's personal choice, but it's really, sometimes I'm like, is that the right choice?
Surabhi: They gotta show off their bodies ultimately, which is like, you know, I'm all for people showing off whatever they want to, but it's also like, is this part of the practice? No. You know, this is not authentically part of the practice.
Jesal: Um, it's a, it speaks to the culture, is what you're saying is like, is the studio culture one that's encouraging practicality, or is the studio culture about like ex explaining your own sexuality in some way? Yeah, and it's okay. Like if that's what you want to do, that's fine, but it, like, essentially if you're so worried about how you look in the studio setting, are you getting the max benefits versus like, For me, [00:16:00] like yoga is this thing that helps me connect with me and kind of forget about other people's opinions or thoughts about me.
Exactly. Yeah. And so if the studio culture is such, and I'm not saying it's any one person's fault or whatever, it's also like New York City, it's like a whole, you know, whatever. Yeah. This whole system behind it. But if you're, if you feel this pressure to dress sexy in your yoga practice, it really speaks to how effective your practice.
Has been over time, which is that you're still so worried about what other people think about you,
Surabhi: which is like not the point at all.
Jesal: Yeah. Which I mean like, yeah, I'm, I feel bad for you. I feel like, okay, you're not really getting the benefits, which is to help you care less about what people think about you, care more about what you think of yourself.
Surabhi: And like for me, it's a distraction when I can't stretch and move comfortably. Yes. So like people are wearing these high wasted leggings that like cinch everything in and I'm like, if you can't breathe, like, you know, I work in pelvic health like, you [00:17:00] know, a lot of my yoga clients. Oh, I, I not, I notice I can't control my gas in this position.
I'm like, maybe wear looser pants so you're not like, Being forced to squeeze everything in nonstop. And like even just simple changes like that, like wearing clothes that actually fit and are comfortable for you to stretch and move in.
Jesal: Yeah. Um, and it's gonna be different for different bodies for sure.
Like there are some people who I know like, like I just get so hot and it's like, okay, fine, whatever. I'm not judging you, but it's just this idea of like, you, sometimes it's obvious that there is like a cultural element within a certain space where everybody feels this pressure to like, Show off their looks versus like, legitimately you're choosing to wear less clothing because you were so hot.
Yeah. Or because it's, or tighter clothing because you, if you feel more supportive or whatever it might be. Like, you know, there's a lot of gray area. I just feel like kind of each of us needs to be introspective about. What? It's like our Y Yeah, yeah. Our why, like why are we should are, are we, do we feel [00:18:00] externally pressured to dress this way?
Or is it like, I really want to dress this way because it helps me in my practice? Hmm. Yeah.
Surabhi: Thinking about the why behind. Yeah. Yeah. I
love that.
Jesal: The opposite is true. When I was in India, we had to wear Kurtas and Kurtas are like long, so they were actually kind of in the way too, because like fabric would get stuck under your butt when you're trying to do certain poses, like a seated forward fold or something, you know?
So it's like there's a middle ground in there too. I am, I
Surabhi: love like loose pants to practice in. Yeah, me too. But yeah, if you know, it's, it's also what I grew up with, so it's like easier for me to say that. But yeah, people grew up with just tights all the time, like maybe that's what they're comfortable in, but understanding the vibe of the clinic.
Yeah. Or studio are going to. And is it pressurizing you to like fit the aesthetic or can you just show up as yourself? Exactly. Because of all practices. If you can't show up as yourself in yoga, like. Like, that's not, that's not good. It's heartbreaking.
Jesal: It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Yeah.
Surabhi: Um, [00:19:00] okay, so tell me about what went on in the podcast making process.
Jesal: Well we have six episodes that are out that, so it's a limited series, and we did Karma, capitalism did Killed Yoga, and it talks about like volunteer force, volunteer work within our industry and labor practices. We have Vinyasa killed Yoga. So all about like how fitness industry has influenced, um, our, our industry.
We have, oh gosh, it's been a while now. Okay. We've heard us killed yoga and it's all about like, Um, sexual harassment and abuse within our industry. We have 200 hours killed yoga, which is all about like these organizations that kind of gatekeeper on the CER certifications and things like that. And then, what's our last episode?
I have to think about it.
Surabhi: You know, the 200 hours thing? I wanted to talk about that because, I remember I'm, you know, I'm a physiotherapist, so when I used to work in clinic, what was your last, last episode?
Jesal: I'm looking it up. Okay, so when I [00:20:00] vegans speaks, of course I was just talking about it this week,
vegans killed yoga it's all about diet culture and it is. On. I wish we had kind of said the words cultural appropriation flat out in that episode. We did not. But it is actually about cultural appropriation too. Yeah.
Surabhi: Yeah. So much cultural appropriation and like, I remember when I was in working clinic and I had a patient come, a white patient.
I was like, oh, I've started yoga. And I thought they were telling me because I'm Indian cuz I was like, oh, okay, cool. Because back then yoga wasn't as popular when I first became a physio. It was just starting to become more popular. Then I realized that person had no idea that yoga was even like Indian or like South Asian or anything.
Mm-hmm. And so they were just telling me because they were just telling me that they'd started a new sport or new activity. And I was, I was offended cuz I was like, it would be like if you went to an Italian and are like, oh, I started, uh, [00:21:00] Meatball spaghetti and, you know, spaghetti factory or something. Or like, I'm starting to make tiramisu and sell it outta my backyard.
And you're like, I'm Italian. You, you're, you're telling me this like, This is my culture. Right. And so, first of all, my culture was erased from their class. Clearly they didn't, they had no idea that it was even Indian. I, I said it to them like, oh, you know, it's like Indian and you know, originated in India and like long time ago, they're like, oh, no way.
I didn't know that. Obviously there was no people of color in the class. Mm-hmm. Uh, I live in Toronto, very multicultural. Most classes do not have people of color unless maybe it's like, you know, Chinese or like, uh, E East Asians. But a lot of South Asians aren't welcome. I've talked to so many people who are like, I just don't feel welcome in classes, and I feel the same.
And like somebody asked me, one of my, uh, friends who's a physio, did her two, 200 hour teacher training and was like, oh, where did you do your training? And I'm like, I didn't, but like I grew [00:22:00] up with it. So I don't think that I'm any less trained than you are because you took 200 hours of. Teaching in the past two months or whatever, but it's this over-emphasis on certifications versus lived experience.
Mm-hmm. And it is erasing people with lived experience of like a lifetime of lived experience in the culture. You know, would I be able to go and teach everybody everything about yoga? Absolutely not. But there's so much,
Jesal: most 200 hour teachers can't though. And I speak yes. Even to my own experience, after taking a 200 hour training, I was like, uh, You know, you're, you're very equipped after a 200 hour training to teach the peop you're told to.
You can teach anyone after 200 hours, and the reality is you absolutely cannot. It's not true at all.
Surabhi: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the whole credentialing and, you know, , the whole system is very, Like colonized, right? It's like a absolutely overvalue on credentials versus like that [00:23:00] lived experience.
Jesal: I was, I think there is a need for credentialing to, to the degree that like, it is very easy as we know, even with credentialing in this industry, to say whatever you want and market whatever you want and kind of quote unquote get away with it.
You know what I mean? Like to just make up claims essentially. So I think credentialing exists to try to mitigate that to some degree now, how successful it is, we could have probably like a whole back and forth discussion on that, right? Like, I don't think it's necessarily that successful. I think there are some, some credentialing, aspects that are, and then some are not.
But I do think like coming from. A South Asian background if you feel like you were exposed to your culture, cuz not everyone who grew up in the diaspora does, right? Not everyone who grew up here feels like in the US or otherwise feels connected to their culture in a strong way. But if you feel like you had some [00:24:00] connection to your culture, there is context there that is very much important and is what the folks who take teacher training in the West are actually having to try to learn.
Right. So it can be helpful in the sense that like even if you are of South Asian descent and you maybe have like exposure to your, your culture, but it's limited, very limited in scope, right? Maybe you start to see different points of view, right? It opens up and expands and so that is very useful and it's useful for everybody because one of the, there's so many misconceptions.
That happen in yoga because of like taking something that's based in Eastern ideologies and then trying to transport them into Western ideologies and to fit these completely new underlying assumptions. And people don't understand that the cultures have underlying assumptions attached and associated with them.
Is Yoga a religion?
Jesal: I think that's where a lot of harm is actually done is. Like, if you [00:25:00] don't even understand that, like, like for example, the, the question always comes up is yoga a religion? How do you explain to somebody that the concept of religion in India is in South Asia is fairly new and actually it's new in terms of like the world because Abrahamic faiths are what created this idea of like, you're either in a religion or out of religion, right?
Yeah. Religion as a concept is like a finite thing of like, you either believe or you don't believe in this. Like binary only existed.
Surabhi: Yes. It's a very binary, like, oh, do you believe in God or you don't, right.
Jesal: Yeah. Yeah. And that like really, I mean, I think it started with like Judaism and Islam, but it, and then of course it expanded into Christianity, but for Foric religions it's not so, right.
It's like this plurality of thought and people didn't all agree with each other. That's why we have Vedas. [00:26:00] Yeah,
Spirituality
Surabhi: right. And I feel like in in, I can't speak to all South Asian countries, but in India, like everyone, not everyone, but like almost everyone is spiritual in some way. It is part of the culture to have that spirituality.
Jesal: Well, and spirituality encompasses, we should say, because again, in the West there's this very binary of like, spirituality means you believe in God. And in the east, in va, in like all of these different cultures, atheism is a part of that. You can, you can have an atheistic based belief system. So I think again, just realizing that there, there's not a bi, it's not a binary out.
Yeah, it's a huge spectrum. Right. Versus here it's like, oh, you either do or you don't. You're either atheist or you're spiritual. It's like, yes, it could be both actually. Yes.
Surabhi: And for me it's, it's even the like whole. Individualism and community [00:27:00] thinking, like the whole way of thinking is very different between mm-hmm. Eastern cultures and western cultures. So even to like, teach someone why yoga can't be an individual practice. Mm-hmm. It's, you know, social justice and community, like caring about your community is part of it.
Mm-hmm. It can't, you can't separate the two, you know, it's, People just think they can sign up for a class show up and not, I'm not even talking about the people who are practicing the teachers, they just think it's like a job. They just teach it and then it's like done. And I'm like, then you're just teaching a flexibility class or mm-hmm.
A strength class or whatever. Don't call it yoga because it's not what it is. Mm-hmm. Um, it's not, you know, it has to be for me anyways. Yoga can't be on it for you too. It's not just Asana. And for,
Cultural Appropriation of Yoga and South Asian Culture
Surabhi: there's somebody who sent me a message yesterday about a company called Asana. Mm-hmm. But on their web, do you know the, do you know about this?
Yeah. It's like a,
Jesal: um, project management.
Surabhi: [00:28:00] Okay. That's, I I didn't hear about it until yesterday. Yeah. But on their, on their website, they're like, we pronounce it Asana. Yeah. Or you could pronounce it the other way, the other sanskrit way Asana. I'm like, there's no other sanskrit way that is the way to pronounce it.
Mm-hmm. But it's this like, where are the actually the right way? Or you could practice it the wrong other way. Mm-hmm. And it's like delineating, like they know better because they made up a pronunciation.
Jesal: Yeah. Establishing a hierarchy.
Surabhi: Exactly. And it's just very, um, it's a erasure, right? A erasure of the cultures.
And I don't think people who haven't had that happen to their cultures will truly get why it's so harmful. Mm-hmm. Because to them they're like, but it's cool. It's fun. Why can't I teach it? I learned it. I wanna teach it.
Jesal: I mean, honestly, people from our own culture sometimes don't really understand it.
Right, because of the deep longing to be accepted into the hierarchy [00:29:00] that exists.
Experiencing racism as a child
Surabhi: Especially the ones that grow up here. I find that for me, I moved to Canada when I was 10, so for, because I did birth and anatomy in India, I did tic music training in India. I, I grew up enough, I think, in India to retain some of that.
But when I moved here, I definitely want to fit in. So I definitely pay. Yeah,
Jesal: actually with, it's so interesting you say that, and I mean, again, like there's no right and wrong way to feel about it, but for my observation, it's actually the opposite too. Like I feel like folks, cause I was born here, right?
Mm-hmm. And so you like when you are born here and you're especially like not, most of us didn't grow up in like a very brown community. If you did, maybe things are different, but you experienced racism right off the bat when you're a kid. Like, you know, it's not, doesn't miss you when you're three years old, right?
So, So like you're very hyper aware that like people feel that you do not belong here from a young age versus like when you grow up. From what I've seen, and this is just my limited exposure, but from what I've seen is folks who grew up in [00:30:00] India, they have no reason to believe that they don't belong in life.
Exactly. Yeah. Right.
Surabhi: They
Jesal: like there's, yeah. So there's just like this assumption that. Oh, uh, why shouldn't I be in these spaces? Why don't I deserve to be here? Like, there's no, and then you come here and actually, like, it's interesting because folks who, who have come here, like even from my family or whatever, uh, you know, friends, and it just, it's like an interesting thing because they don't even notice racism as it happens.
Hmm. Right? Like, it's almost like you're, cuz you're not attuned to it. And in a way it's good cuz it shields you emotionally, but in a way it's also like, If you don't recognize the dynamic, it's easy to think that like you're accepted when the reality is like you're not accepted. No. So like there is this kind of like, um, dissonance that.
You think you belong more than you do, and you don't even realize that it's working against you. And so what sometimes I think happens is folks who, who come in with that, like they internalize failure in a different way because they think it's them. It's individualized. Oh, it must be me. [00:31:00] They're not accepting it because of my work or whatever it is.
Versus realizing, oh, there's a systemic issue at play. Like they're never gonna accept you. In in who you are
Surabhi: because that was, that was me though, right? Like when I moved here, when I was 10, that was my first experience with racism. Like day one in the schoolyard, right? Mm-hmm. And like, just not even like subtle like racial slur slurs telling me to go back, like all of, and I was shocked cuz I was like, but like why?
Like, yeah. I just didn't understand and exactly like you said, it was an understanding that it was wrong, but also wanting to fit in so. Mm-hmm. Internalizing that
Jesal: even, even people here wanna, who have grown up here, like wanna fit in. Like, why wouldn't you like, that's, you wanna be a part of the group that you wanna belong at all.
Yeah. Belonging everybody to belong. Right. But at some point, like, hopefully your eyes get open to the fact that there is this very unfair hierarchy and it harms everybody involved in, in establishing and maintaining the hierarchy. Yes. To different degrees. Right. Obviously people who are at the top [00:32:00] are hurt and harmed a lot less, but they're still hurt and harmed.
They are. Yeah. You know,
Surabhi: and they lo I feel like you also lose part of your humanity when you can't. When you're always on top and you can't relate. Right. Like you literally can't feel in the same way. You can't empathize. I'm like, that's robbing you of your own humanity. Yep. And that is a serious issue.
And like, so my brother was 16 when we moved and I was 10. He didn't get impacted by racism as much, even though he got the slurs. He knew he was who he was. He was like almost an adult. Whereas, because I was like prepuberty. Mm-hmm. I like absorbed all of that. Yeah. And I internalized it. And it wasn't until I had my.
Daughter four and a half years ago that I really started to accept myself and understand that it wasn't a me problem, that this is a systemic issue. But it took me a long time to figure that out because I
Jesal: was a long time too when I grew up here. I
Surabhi: know you just hide it away and you just wanna desperately fit in.
But you realize no matter how hard you try, you're never going [00:33:00] to like be the cultural, you know?
Jesal: Yeah. And you know, I think this is the, for us as like. South Asians, right. There's a couple of things. There's a couple of bigger issues. One is that you don't even realize what you're giving up in the process, right?
Because it's, so much of it is giving up your own identity. Okay. I'll give up my accent. Okay. I'll give up my language. Okay. I'll give up my cultural practices. Yeah. And over time, yeah. My food and all of those things. And then over time you realize like, oh, I actually sacrificed a lot of my identity and that identity.
Like at some point in your life you're like, yearning to get it back. You know? You're almost like, wait. That was my connection to my. Ancestors. That was a connection to my body physically, how it shows up today, right? Like this, this drastic change in location and food and whatever is having an impact on me physically, mentally, emotionally, on levels I didn't even realize until I got older and it all catches up to you.
So I think at some point, like you don't even realize you're giving up all these things. No. And then you don't even realize how you're perpetuating it onto other people, [00:34:00] right? Yes, yes. Because we have a lot of anti-blackness in our community. Yep. Right. So like then we're like part of the same problems, part of the problem we're experiencing, we're only exacerbated bating it and making it worse for other folks.
Yeah. In the process. And then even within our own culture, like because, you know, white supremacy and castes are not unrelated in how they operate. And so like, I think one of the biggest things that, you know, this is the joke in our culture, the joke is like the Indian uncle who always thinks he's right.
That's the joke. I have one. Yeah. Who doesn't have one? Everyone has one. Every freaking uncle is like pretty much an uncle who's like steeped in patriarchy and thinks, oh yeah, they're right. Oh yeah. And like, let me tell you about your area of expertise, cuz even though you've studied it and worked in it, like, like my, my husband and I joke cuz he is in finance and he is, you know, he does really well in what he does.
He's really well respected in his field and some Indian uncle will come to him and be like, I'm gonna give you some advice that, let me tell you about your industry [00:35:00] and how you should be doing your job. And he's like, ok, listen, this, this
Surabhi: is what happened to me with my uncle. Yeah. So how was, um, I had just given birth at home.
Yeah. He demanded to show up the same day. Oh my God. I was like, I have no clothes on. I'm moving it for my
Jesal: nipples. Let, lemme tell you how you should be postpartum and you're like, I was
Surabhi: like, I'm pretty sure I have postpartum depression, but like nobody cares about me. You just wanna meet my baby. I'm like, you just flew from a plane.
God knows what germs you have. You're not coming to meet my baby. Um,
Jesal: and but you know, in our culture, that's the equivalent of the white man who thinks he knows everything and can demand that everyone should believe what he believes.
Surabhi: They perpetuate the same things, and I like. I, I do find that when people aren't willing to open their eyes and see the truth of how they also play into this, you know, white supremacy and, and women play into patriarchy too.
Mm-hmm. Cause they become bosses and then they treat their, their female employees like crap. Mm-hmm. You know, doing the same [00:36:00] things that, um, you know, man typically would. But like we perpetuate the same issues if we're not opening our eyes to how it affects us in our own cultures, and I love that you brought that up.
It's such an, it's such an important point that I think so many South Asians are, they feel victimized by racism, and so they think that they're, they're the most affected and nobody else's. I'm like, no, no, you are affected, but also all these other people are even more impacted, and you have to be part of the change.
Jesal: Yeah. We, I ran this like, This program with, um, colleagues and friends, Susanna Baraki and Lakshmi Nayer a couple years ago, and we called it Belonging and it was for South Asians. And a big theme of like leading this group of folks was like the idea of sitting as both the oppressed and the oppressor simultaneously at the same time.
How do you navigate that in your life? Because it's not like you wanna turn, like the tendency is to turn one of those facets off. Right. And only focus like either it's like, oh, I'm only the oppressed, or [00:37:00] I'm only the oppressor. Right. And to realize like, no, most of us live in this gray area all the time.
Yeah. And it's okay. And it's like we don't have to like, it's not mutually exclusive. We can work on our own equality within spaces where we feel oppressed and also work on the quality of others and spaces that we are doing the oppressing. Right?
Surabhi: Yeah. Gimme both. And I feel like when you liberate yourself in one way, you also liberate others with you.
Right? So it's. I, I have been on that journey myself. I, I found having kids to be the biggest, driving factor for me because my kids are biracial. My husband is white, and I was like, oh my gosh, my kids are not gonna learn anything about my culture because yeah, I have distanced myself from my culture so much through the years and.
Just because my parents live here too, doesn't mean, and like they eat Indian food all the time, doesn't mean they're gonna learn Indian culture if I, their mother is not practicing it too.
Jesal: Yeah.
Surabhi: Mm-hmm. And [00:38:00] this is like you therapy and all that stuff to kind of come to these conclusions, but it was very eye-opening for me how even someone, like you said, like born in India.
Can be so distanced from their own culture because of this desperate desire to just belong and fit in. Yeah. Um, and you know, there's a sadness for all the years that I lost, but also there's a hope and excitement for all the years that I have that I can continue to embrace parts of myself.
Jesal: Yeah. Well, and speaking of motherhood, I mean that's something like I'm moving into and as I think about it, it's the same idea.
Well, like in her day-to-day life, you get to take your own identity and values and belief systems. For granted, cuz you don't have to like explain them or like externally, you know, create any semblance of its existence. And now that I'm having a child, I'm like, okay, wait, how do I pass on the right values?
Yes. And you have to really create like an intentional, uh, Idea of like, what are the rituals gonna look like? [00:39:00] How, how are we gonna actually in practice, make this an external thing that gets absorbed? Yeah. Because like, yeah, we have it internally and there's like, you know, my hu between my husband and I, and we have like, you know, our shorthand or whatever, but for somebody new coming into this scenario, yeah, that's not true.
Surabhi: They're, they're growing into this world where, you know, they might have not had the same experience as you, or they won't. Right. And so, you know,
Jesal: and it's. And it's also like, yeah, okay, we love Indian food already, for example. Right? Just like a silly example. We love Indian food already. So like on a Friday night we're like, oh, what should we order?
Like, and you know, we're like, yeah, yeah, I want this, I want that. But like a kid is like not gonna have any idea and not gonna immediately have the taste buds for those things. You have to like intentionally cultivates Yes. You know, a connection and desire for those things.
Surabhi: And part of that is like for me, like cooking it, right?
Because yeah, my, my kids, we, my parents and we live in the same building, so like, You know, fortunate in some ways, um, in many ways. But like, we'll go to their house. [00:40:00] My mom will have made food, so we're not part of the experience of making the food. We're just eating it. You're showing up, you're showing up, or like when you order takeout, you just eat it.
But I'm like, we also order pizza. We also order Thai food. We also order burritos. So it's like, for them, the ordering of the food isn't any different than any other culture. It's like, you know, one of the things that I'm working on is like wearing saris more. I have so many, like actually wearing them more.
Mm-hmm. Taking them to the temple to expose them to other cultural aspects. Um, listening to hi, like Hindi music, tic music, uh, dance, like I've started to take a Bollywood dance. Like these are all so intentional. They take work because. I had separated myself from it for so long.
Jesal: Well, actually, it's so funny you say that because my husband and I were, one of the things, one of our projects for the next few weeks is to like, make some playlists that we'd wanna play, like when the baby's around, like just music, just exposure to music that like, you know, nursery rhymes are great.
And also like, I don't only wanna play nursery [00:41:00] rhymes. And so I was like,
Surabhi: what's, you drive yourself insane with that?
Jesal: Right? And just like, I was like, yeah, I didn't wanna make like a. Indian music playlists, like every, like you said, everything from classical to Bollywood because like, I just want this, this kid to have exposure to different things.
And part of that different things is also their own culture.
Surabhi: That's it. Right. Because that's unique to them that Yeah, another kid of a different culture is not gonna have that, and I'm like, they have to have that connection to their culture. Mm-hmm. If they, especially like, They don't have to, but like I want them to.
Yeah, they want them to. Yeah. And it's, it has to be so intentional now, and that's when I was like, I can't let people mispronounce my name anymore because my daughter is gonna listen to all that and be like, wait. Why is this? Okay, so I guess people can mispronounce my name too. Mm-hmm. Because like, you know, it's, it's, it's all, um, it all matters so much more now.
It's not just you. It's like this little being who's gonna absorb everything and yeah, that's when I [00:42:00] really started caring about all of this more. And I feel like it's driven me to be a better human. Um, and I'm excited for you because it's gonna be life, obviously it's life changing, but, I think it also, um, sharpens your mission.
Like really, I think it helps strengthen your resolve for like both from a social justice lens of like, okay, these things really matter, but also from like a prioritizing your own life and like what really matters. Um, can you tell me about. Your pregnancy and like some of the medical guidelines. I remember you shared something with me about Yeah.
Food. Yeah. So tell me about that.
Pregnancy
Jesal: I mean, this one was like very. Very shocking to me. So the pregnancy, I will say overall I've been very lucky and things have been going smoothly, knock on wood. Good. Um, still got a few weeks left, and for the most part, like my care has been great. And I will just say that at this point I have chose midwifery [00:43:00] care and we can talk about that because it's like such an interesting topic, like the misconceptions around midwifery care, but has been great.
And I'm with a midwife, so I see. I have to meet like all the different midwives within the group, and most of them have been excellent. And then I saw one sort of like in the middle of my pregnancy who basically told me to just not eat carbs. And I was like, what? Excuse me. And like this was not based on like basically, hello, nice to meet you.
Let's talk about how you shouldn't eat carbs. And I was like, Wait, did my tests say anything? No. Like it was, my tests were all normal. Like all my blood work is normal, everything is like going great. You know what I mean? There's like no medical reason as far as I knew for her to be making this recommendation to me.
Surabhi: And even if you did test positive for gestational diabetes, it's
Jesal: like, this is before I even took the test, by the way. Oh my gosh. This is before the [00:44:00] test. So the test was like the thing she was like trying to talk about. But I was like, wait, what? Like is there , I'm like, is there a reason for concern here?
Like that we're having this conversation. Yeah. And like there was just no reason for concern. And I ended up speaking to another midwife later who I had a better relationship with and had trust in, and they were like, yeah, there was no medical reason. This person just says this is a blanket statement to everybody.
But at the time I didn't know that. And. I'm like, that's wrong on so many, it's still wrong on so many levels like that you're telling blanketly people to stop eating carbs. I'm like, you realize like fruit is carbs, right? Carbs are essential. Carbs are essential. I was like the misconception, the levels of misconception.
I was like, not only are carbs in everything, first of all, and not only are they essential to your wellbeing, but s now you're telling like a pregnant person who needs more energy in a day. Who's a vegetarian by the way. So like, I'm not gonna go keto. All of a sudden no. Oh my god. You know what I mean?
Like midway through pregnancy, you want me to go keto? Is that [00:45:00] what you're trying to say? And then on that level, I was like, okay. And then there's the, the race and ethnicity level of this, of like, so you're basically telling me my cultural foods are bad. Yeah.
Surabhi: Like I can't eat roti rice.
Jesal: Yeah. And whatever, like my mother-in-law thinks is like a good thing for me to be eating during the pregnancy.
Like, oh, have this, like the ba, it's supposed to be good for the baby, blah, blah, blah. You know, like all of those things, you're basically telling me all of that is wrong. So I was like very, this is weighing on me. And like, you know, at that point I was having like monthly appointments, so like for a month I was like stressed out like, oh my God, oh
Surabhi: God.
Like is this true? Well, and I think that that's, Like you are somebody who is, you know, probably on the better at as advocating for yourself than like the average person because you've already spoken out about other things. Yeah, for sure. Imagine someone who's like already got like no voice
Jesal: lacking. Well, I understood the issue.
I think the thing is I understood the issues and the layers of the issues and why it was upsetting to me, but it still was hard to advocate because it's [00:46:00] still hard. Yeah. You're in this situation where like if you advocate for yourself, does this mean now your level of care is gonna go down? Right.
Surabhi: So you're at a vulnerable
Jesal: state.
Yeah. You're in a vulnerable place of like, so I ended up booking the appointment with the midwife that I knew I, I trusted because I like had spoken to her. I knew her, a little bit of her family background, like she was married into an Indian family. She had an Indian husband, so I'm sure she's like dealt with.
She could understand the cultural aspect of it. Yeah. Right. Even if she didn't understand the other aspect. Luckily she did, she understood the whole diet culture aspect of it. But if she hadn't, I was like, at least she might understand that like, Racially and ethnically speaking, like this is very not a nice thing to say to somebody.
So l luckily that conversation wouldn't look really smoothly. But I was nervous even then cuz I'm like, what if my level of care goes down? But I was like, I specifically chose to speak to one other person because there was like a, I had called a front desk and I was like, who do I deliver feedback to?
And I was afraid, like, if it gets to the head of the group or operations, like [00:47:00] now they're gonna like, I'm gonna be the difficult patient through the whole group. Right. Yeah. They're not gonna wanna be kind to me. They're not gonna wanna be compassionate towards me. They're gonna like roll their eyes every time I walked in the room.
Like who knows what other outcomes that leads to. So my like, it's funny cuz my husband's reaction was like, she's just like this person who told you this is clearly nuts. And he Yeah. You know, and you shouldn't be working there. Honestly, between us we're like typical white woman, honestly. And. He's like, you should just ignore what she said.
And I was like, no, this is really upsetting me. And even if it's, I need to find out one, if it's personal, like does she just see a chubby woman walk into the room and make assumptions? Is there actually something medically wrong? Like I need to discern what's going on here. And then secondly, if this is a blanket statement to everybody, then I also can't just leave it at that.
Like that's not like Then this woman is doing this to other people then.
Surabhi: Well, and that's. Both of those are concerning because that's not her medical ex exp [00:48:00] expertise. Exactly. Like food nutrition advice is not a midwife's or OBs expertise. Refer to a dietician if you're worried.
Jesal: Exactly. That sounds like if you have a concern, we can talk about like referring me to an expert, but I don't, again, you haven't brought up an issue or concern.
Yeah. It was like a very disorienting experience,
Surabhi: and it's very hard in pregnancy because I found that more than any other time in my life you feel deeper. Everything is.
Jesal: Yeah, more detail. Yeah, for sure. The anxieties
Surabhi: are like, and the anxiety, and you're like, you just want everything to go right, right? And you're like, yeah, no, it's, it's so hard.
I hope that didn't impact your food decisions.
Jesal: It was almost like every time I'd eat something like naughty quote unquote, I'd be like thinking of her, like, spiting her. So funny.
Gestational Diabetes Test
Jesal: But then like, you know, you do the, you do the test. So I did what I also think is important, and I don't know, you've probably talked about it on here, but I didn't realize until I started, I went to [00:49:00] this midwife group that there are actually different ways to do this gestational diabetes test.
And like they, one of the things they offer is the food-based test, so you don't have to do the drink. And I then I al also in this interim period had talked to like my friend who's a doula about it too, and, One of the things she was saying is like, you don't have to do the test at all. So for me, I want, I needed to do the test because my goal at this point is to give birth in the birthing center and to give birth in the birthing center.
It's required to do a gestational diabetes test because you have to prove that you're low risk. If however, I was giving birth in the hospital, it would not have mattered because I would still be giving birth in the hospital regardless of. The outcome now it can be helpful. Absolutely. It can give you certain information about like the baby and the, you know, the shape of the baby as it comes out and can help prepare the correct outcome.
But is it absolutely required? No, I didn't [00:50:00] realize that. So I think it's just worth noting. And then I think like every one of my other friends I talked to had done the drink and they didn't know that you could do, like not only was there alternative drinks, cuz you're usually given like glucola, but there's like other like, Organic versions of glucola you can take.
But then there's this meal test, which is what I did, and I talked about it with my midwife and the pros and cons, and my midwife was like, well, the glucola test is standardized. So it's good in terms of like if you're trying to measure yourself against like what, how other people do on this test, there's standardized data, but it doesn't measure how food actually reacts in your system.
So the midwife group, like. Recommends the food toss because you're, when with the color, it's straight up sugar. Like who's which? I
Surabhi: always think like it's. Probably the least healthy thing to give a pregnant person anyway. It really is. But also it's a drink. The sugary drink. Oh, it's gonna give you, it's gonna give you diabetes if nothing else will.
Because first of all, nobody's just drinking sh like, and it's disgusting [00:51:00] sugar. It's just so gross. Well, and
Jesal: maybe some people are drinking like soda or something, but like who? I'm just saying most pregnant people are not. Yeah. Chugging sugary drinks. One after the other. So it's like kind of a weird test to be giving as opposed to like, and it's not
Surabhi: really been validated.
Right. So it's like, it's a guess. But even still, like a lot of people test false and a
Jesal: lot of people f get false positives, right? Yeah. Because your sy, your system is not used to having that amount of sugar, carbs without fiber or protein. Alongside of it. So the food test is like a set meal that you're supposed to have that has the same amount of carbohydrates as the glucola test.
But the difference is you're intaking it with fiber and protein the way your body would normally digest. So it's a, it's a better representation of whether you are experiencing gestational diabetes or not. But it doesn't have standardized data. Right. So those are like the pros and cons, just putting it out there.
Cause I was like fascinated. I'm like, okay. All right. And that helped me [00:52:00] inform my decision. And some people might want the standard test and that's great. And for me, I was like, oh, I, I would think it'd be more accurate for me to realize how food interacts in my system. So I did the food test and I passed it and it was great.
And I was like, I don't see this woman created stress for a month for no reason. Yeah. And there are other ways that are like it will show up in your body. Gestational diabetes, meaning like high blood pressure. Like one of the biggest things is pre-eclampsia. Right? That's what they're testing for. And then I also didn't know this, but in other countries they don't do this test at all.
They do a urine test every single time. You go to the doctor and they check your blood sugar levels in your urine. Hmm.
Surabhi: That seems a lot simpler.
Jesal: It's also because like, so I was talking to Sammy's cousin, my husband's cousin, and she was like, yeah, they do this urine test. So basically like if one week your blood sugar levels are high, they're basically like, what did you eat this week?
Like, don't, you know, don't
Surabhi: eat that. So you can make like real time eat slices of cake right [00:53:00] before your appointment.
Jesal: Right. Like, but it's like also real time. Yeah. Adjustment. Based on what is actually happening. So I was like, oh, that's fascinating because here you get the label and you're stuck with the label, the whole pregnancy.
And then, oh,
Surabhi: I've had clients who've had, and this is the thing, it's not always weight either. Some people think it's body size or
Jesal: like I'm a big person and I nothing do completely healthy. Yeah.
Surabhi: And like I have had very thin patients who ate well and were like, listen, I know my diet is good, but I tested positive.
And I'm like, and it's because your body's not used to eating. I'm with sugar. Exactly.
Jesal: Yeah. Some studies show that like the healthier you eat, the more likely you are to fail the test because, the glucola test, not necessarily the food test. The glucola, yeah. Because again, they don't have data on the food test, but the glucola test, because again, it's straight up sugar in your body's like, uh, you don't, I don't, we don't do this.
It's like has trouble handling that high level
Surabhi: of, one of my friends ate a bagel. Yeah. And then drank that. And so the combo of the [00:54:00] bagel, which is like carbs and sugar with the drink put her over the edge. Yeah. And I was like, probably It's cuz you ate a bagel. Bagel. Yeah.
Jesal: Yeah, so anyway, I just thought that was like a fascinating thing where I'm like, oh, so here you get this label and then you're stuck with it.
And then even if you show that it's a false positive, like cuz you have to do blood, you have to like draw your blood every couple hours for like the rest of the pregnancy basically. And even if you show your blood sugar levels are normal every single day after the test of the false positive, you are still gonna be labeled diabetic.
You know, gestational diabetes versus like the blood, the urine tests, they'll be like, oh, okay, like, don't eat that. And every week they'll just test it and make sure that like it's normal you, that it's normal again, and you're not stuck with the label. That then determines like your options there.
Surabhi: You give birth and like yeah, all of that stuff.
And also like the assumption that it increases risk for your baby because yes. There has been data to show that if you have diabetes it can, but when the [00:55:00] test has so many false positives, like why are we putting so much weight on that
Jesal: one in four, I think is the stat. By the way. One in four people get a false positive on this test.
That's high. It's very high, and then you take the three hour test, but it's still not accurate. Anyway, there's a whole thing, but a lot of people get false positives on this.
Surabhi: I almost declined it with my second because I, I was like, what's the point? Like I've been eating the same, it's gonna be fine. But because I had home births again, I was like, just in case I'll do it.
Jesal: Wanna make sure the risk level is low. Right?
Surabhi: Yeah. Because I didn't want them, my iron was already low, so I was like, okay, I don't wanna then have a low iron and um, Test positive and then have a home birth. Right? Like just in case. So yeah. Took it anyways. But I really do value midwives because they give you options and they like inform you more about these things versus
Jesal: the good ones do.
Hopefully not all of them are true
Surabhi: equal. And same with OBs right? Like good ones will give you that informed consent. Mm-hmm. And you know, one of the things that you said is like [00:56:00] unsolicited advice when you're pregnant. Mm-hmm. I remember no other time in my life have I gotten so much random advice and I'm like, listen, I'm a physio.
People are giving me movement advice. I'm like, why would you think that I don't know this better than you? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Better than you. Yeah. People are giving me advice on like birthing, and I'm like, what? Like totally inappropriate, like what to eat, what music to listen to. Like everyone has an opinion.
Jesal: It's why I waited so long to put it on social media and I will say my community that I've cultivated on social media has been like so great and supportive for the most part. And like when it comes to pregnancy, I actually haven't gotten any crazy comments. I'm also very guarded about what I post around it.
But still, like even so I expected worse than I got. I think when you put out, again, a controversial podcast, you're used to like, you know, cool. Yeah. Negative opinions and thoughts and whatever. And so, you know, I was kind of prepared for that. I'm very lucky that, [00:57:00] again, I've cultivated this community of supported people, so I didn't get it, but in real life it's a different thing.
I was just, on my way at the grocery somewhere. Grocery store? Yeah. Yeah. I was just on my way somewhere like the other day and I had an Uber driver or whatever, and I was telling the driver like, oh yeah, I'm taking like a couple weeks off before I give birth. And the Uber driver was like, why?
You should stay active. You should keep working. I'm like, first of all, staying active and keeping working my job are two different things. Like staying active in my job means sitting at a desk at a computer, which is not good for my body. No. Yeah, and I'm like, but this person just had like all these opinions around like how I should be.
I'm like, you have no idea what the context of my life is to be giving me this type of advice. I know and like, which is crazy. And
Surabhi: again, it goes and it was like a man binary. It was a man. I was like, I figured it was a man. It's also the binary, right? It's like why does it have to look one way or the other?
Like it can be a spectrum of like every woman in this [00:58:00] world is unique and different, every person is different, so why
can't you?
Jesal: He's obviously projecting his own stuff onto me, but I was like, I don't need to be hearing your, no, you don't need to hear that during pregnancy. And I was so mad. I was so mad because I went to bed that night and like those comments were swirling around in my head. And I'm like, this is living here rent free. And I really don't even respect what this person has to say. I don't agree with it. I don't believe in it. I wish I could just take it out and put it in the trash can. But for some reason, I'm sitting here at night, like, thinking about these words and how ridiculous it was. AI know all my practices, and I still can't help. Like, can't control that. It's like, in there.
[01:00:30] - Surabhi:
Yeah, I always just told myself in hindsight anyways. I was like, this is what I should have told myself, is like, I know my body best. No stranger. Even the doctors midwives, they don't know my body better than I do. You literally know your body best, and you know your baby's body the best. Your baby's living inside you, and so you will always do what's right for you. That's kind of what I kept telling myself. It was easier with my second because I learned with was my first. Every comment would bug me, but with my second, I was also pregnant during the pandemic, let me tell you, it was way better because I was at home. I didn't have to see anybody, didn't have to hear strangers comments. Like, with my first, people would be like, oh, you're so small. Like my bump. Are you sure your baby's healthy? And I'm like, I'm just a small person. Yeah, my baby was eight pounds. We're fine.
[01:01:25] - Jesal:
esalAlso, the vast people's bodies just show differently. It's so incredible.
[01:01:33] - Surabhi:
These are subtle comments, but yeah, they live in your head.
[01:01:36] - Jesal:
And I've gotten, like, people I have friends who have the exact opposite experience who are like, they're a yoga teacher. One of them is a yoga teacher and said my clients were like, are you sure you're not having twins? I'm like, what is the point of saying any of that?
[01:01:48] - Surabhi:
I know. Yeah, because then you get the other extreme. Oh, wow, you're so big. And you're like, yeah.
[01:01:54] - Jesal:
Why are you like, some Goldilocks size? You're supposed to be during pregnancy? I don't know.
[01:02:00] - Surabhi:
It'll never be. The same day. I remember in the elevator one day, a man was like, oh, yeah. A man was like, I think you're going to have a boy. I can tell because the way you're caring, I'm like, Excuse me? You with your own children. You now are a magician and can figure out other people's. Like, nobody asked you for your opinion. Yeah, and then someone else was like, oh, you're for sure having a girl or whatever. And I'm like, I don't care. Your opinions don't matter, but people will give it anyway. So, yeah, I think just setting that boundary and being like, listen, don't really need to hear that I'm busy or whatever. You know what?
[01:02:40] - Jesal:
The other thing I realized is that everyone's internalized sexism comes up a lot. Oh, you're having a boy. This means XYZ in my world. And, oh, that's a very interesting thing that that's what you associate having a.
[01:02:58] - Surabhi:
Boy with being a boy. Yeah.
[01:03:00] - Jesal:
Or like, you're having oh, you're whatever. I'm having a boy. Well, I would say male, because I'm like, we'll see. We'll do a gender reveal when this kid's like, seven or something.
[01:03:10] - Surabhi:
Exactly.
[01:03:11] - Jesal:
For now. And I'm like, oh, all your biases are showing up of what you think each sex is. And you hear from both sides. It's very interesting. Talking about internalized patriarchy as women, I hear a lot of that. As a woman, I'm like, wow, this is what you believe, and even your own upbringing doesn't negate now, your belief system about your own children, wow.
[01:03:35] - Surabhi:
And we didn't find out until they were born, because that was one of my reasonings, is, like, I didn't want people to especially with the second, because I have a girl and then a boy. And again, based on our assigned sex at birth, I didn't want if I was happening, if I happen to have another girl, I didn't want people to be like, oh, yeah. Because I was like, we're done at two regardless. I don't care what their sexes are. But, yeah, I didn't want to hear that because it's just so devastating for a parent to hear that. Like, oh, you must be disappointed when they're probably not.
[01:04:15] - Jesal:
I mean, if I'm being 100% honest, my husband and I were both thrown that we're having a boy.
[01:04:22] - Surabhi:
Yeah.
[01:04:24] - Jesal:
It's so stupid. We're obviously very happy about our child being here and healthy and whatever, all the things. But the first appointment I went to, there was like, they do the heartbeat. And my husband looked up the wives myths, old wives, the rate of heartbeat.
[01:04:42] - Surabhi:
Yeah.
[01:04:42] - Jesal:
And he's like, oh, according to the old wives tales, we might be having a girl. So this is like, well, before we knew what the sex would be. And I was like, okay. Yeah, cool. And so we started researching girls names and all this stuff, right. And then a couple of weeks later, it was like, oh, it's male. And we're like, oh. And it threw us for a loop. I think we got really kind of into the idea of having a girl, and we both kind of got thrown for a loop. And then we started looking up boy names. And so we're giving them kind of traditionally gendered names, but open to changing it, whatever, at some point. But it's like, okay, so boy names are not as fun. It's a lot harder to find. We found a lot of common ground on girl names, and then we were looking at boy names, and we're like, this sucks. This whole process sucks. It's not fun.
[01:05:37] - Surabhi:
And I found actually, so we didn't know till they were born. So I was like, I had a short list for boy names, and there were so few boy names that I liked. So it was like, two options.
[01:05:47] - Jesal:
Yeah, we had two. We narrowed it down to two.
[01:05:50] - Surabhi:
Whereas with girl names, we had so many.
[01:05:52] - Jesal:
We had, like seven or eight already that we were like, yeah.
[01:05:55] - Surabhi:
And after she was born, it took probably, like, two days to figure out her name. And that was another thing my family hated. I was like, there's a naming ceremony at, like, four days. Why do you want to know right away? I was very like, this is how I'm doing it. But, yeah, it was very, like, you said that patriarchal. Like, I need to know first, and I'm right in this scenario. And ultimately, I just kept telling myself, I'm doing what's right for my family and my baby, regardless of what anyone else's opinions are.
