59. Yoga: Parenting, Compassion & Therapy with Jesal Parikh (Part 2)
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Dive into part two of this episode where Surabhi interviews Jesal on the cultural appropriation of yoga, racism, power imbalance and Jesal’s pregnancy journey. We talk about compassion, therapy, parenting and ways to unlearn cultural appropriation.
We discuss:
Jesal’s favourite book & podcast
New Parent Anxiety
Self Care
Lack of compassion in the world
Jesal’s parent strength
Childhood trauma
Couples therapy
Original Godmothers of Yoga ebook
Act Against Appropriation Seminar
True Harm of Cultural Appropriation
Jesal Parikh Bio:
Jesal Parikh is an Indian American yoga teacher, movement educator, and podcaster. She is also an author and disruptor, who works on creative solutions for equity and yoga. She co-hosts the Yoga is Dead podcast and offers movement education through the lens of social justice. Jesal’s aim is to uplift those who are feeling isolated and marginalized by the yoga industry. You may know Jesal best from the podcast, Yoga is Dead, with episodes like White Women Killed Yoga, the podcast explores power, race, and cultural appropriation.
Connect with Jesal & Important Links:
Follow Jesal on Instagram @yogawalla
Find Jesal at https://www.yogawallanyc.com/
Resources from Jesal
Yoga is Dead Podcast: https://www.yogaisdeadpodcast.com/episodes
Act Against Appropriation Seminar: https://www.yogaisdeadpodcast.com/shop/aaa
Original Godmothers of Yoga Ebook: https://www.yogaisdeadpodcast.com/shop/original-godmothers-of-yoga-by-yoga-is-dead
Yoga is Dead Resources: https://www.yogaisdeadpodcast.com/resources
Decolonized Yoga Playlist: https://yogawallaplaylist.ck.page/6788b37607
Connect with Surabhi:
Website: https://www.thepassionatephysio.ca
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Please note that the podcast transcript below starts after the teaser and intro music so the timestamps may be off by a minute.
Surabhi: [00:00:00] okay. Jesal I wanna ask you a few questions.
Jesal: Sure.
Surabhi: Okay.
Favourite book & podcast
Surabhi: So tell me about a book or podcast that has been life changing for you.
Jesal: Okay. I'll tell you one of each, so, okay. And this is obviously just based on recency.
Surabhi: The, that's okay.
Yeah. It doesn't have to be all time. Yeah.
Jesal: The, but the podcast I'm really into right now is the Movement Logic podcast. Um, and I , have collaborated with the Movement Logic team on like two tutorials, but they launched a podcast this year. Amazing. And I've. Yeah, and I'm really into it.
I started listening to it like a couple months ago and I was like, wow, these episodes are really good. And yeah, they interviewed me too. I will just say full disclosure, but all the other episodes I'm like, wow. They did one on yoga and bone density and I was like, this should be a paid workshop. Like you guys are just giving this away for free on the internet.
Surabhi: I honestly, I listened to so many podcasts where I'm like, this is free info. Like this is like, yeah, life changing, like some podcasts, like Oprah's or whatever. I'll be like listening to taking all the notes.
Jesal: [00:01:00] Notes and I'm like, notes, it's right. And I'm like, I'm like planning like content and I'm like, oh, this is really helping me shape some of my content.
And we're like, make sure that, you know, it was great. So it's a great podcast. If you're into movement science. And then the, uh,
New Parent Anxiety
Jesal: the book I would recommend, which a friend recommended to me when I was pregnant is called Expecting Better by Emily Oster. And I think if you are expecting like, yeah, all the other ones are great, whatever, but this one is all about data.
It's all about like, what's the most recent up-to-date data on all of the biggest questions when it comes to pregnancy. So it's not just like tradition and you know, Guidelines that are outdated. It's like, what does the data really say? Nice. So like I loved it and it really helps you again, regardless of your choices, just gives you some like information and feedback and makes you feel less anxious if you don't do things perfectly.
You know what I mean?
Surabhi: You know, and there's no perfect way, but I, I know what you mean. And also, sometimes your healthcare [00:02:00] provider doesn't have the most up-to-date info because they might have gone to school 10 years ago and like, not everyone can keep up with research and data. Like there's so much information out there and research out there.
So I do value like books and podcasts and even posts from people that I follow where I'm like, oh, thank you for updating me because this is useful. Yeah.
Jesal: And like, you know, the ACOG guidelines change all the time too, so you never really know. And so what I love about, because Emily Oster I believe in economist.
Who, you know, obviously has a data science background. So like, then Emily talks about good data versus bad data. So when she's talking about like all the studies, it's like, yes, the, you might have read this one study that got a lot of traction in the media, the study headline people. Yeah. But the study methods weren't very good or they weren't robust or like we're looking, she will be looking at meta-analysis , well how does this compare to all the other studies that have been out there for a long time?
And like if we put it all together, what is the story? And so I think it's a great place to kind of just start because I had a lot of anxiety in the [00:03:00] beginning of the, it's my first pregnancy, so I was like, oh no, am I doing it right? And like, oh yeah, can I eat this? Can I do that? And whatever, whatever. And all the things.
And it really like, because I got informed in this way, it really helped me to like relax. Chill the F out and look at the bigger picture.
Surabhi: I know it is. It is really hard that first pregnancy. It's like, woo. I was anxious about everything. And I think too, like that came out postpartum too. Like the postpartum anxiety about like doing the right thing and like Yeah.
And
Jesal: there's a follow up book called Cribsheet that is also great too cuz it's like the same thing and her, yeah, by Emily Oster too. Nice. Miss. It's like, What now? I think with some of this information I'm able to do and like the way she writes the book too about like meta-analysis and all that stuff is look at the big picture.
Like really zoom out and be like, cut. I think it's so easy to get caught in the weeds of every micro decision you have to make cuz it f everyone feels overwhelming. Like what? You know, bath stuff [00:04:00] should I get? And you're like researching bath stuff for like hours. Gosh. And like at the end of the day, you're like, my parents didn't have any of this stuff.
We are fine. I don't remember getting a bath. This, it's like, fine. I know. It's like now I'm like, okay, well what are the decisions that actually matter versus like, can I zoom out and be like, this kid is, listen,
Surabhi: I was researching the crib skirt. Yeah. Not the crib sheet. The skirt that they'll never touch.
It had to be organic cotton. And I'm like, like I feel. I've grown so much from that new mom, but like there is a transition that I think all new parents go through where you have to worry about nonsense for them to get out of that and be like, oh yeah, it didn't really matter. It's like you have to prove to yourself that it didn't matter once your baby survives and you're like, oh, okay, well okay.
Jesal: I'm trying to do that process now and like it's interesting cuz I'm, which is good, you know, again,
Surabhi: getting ahead of it.
Jesal: Because you can get so down the rabbit hole of stuff. And I think following people like [00:05:00] Emily Oster, like there are other people out there too that really help me to come out of the, like the micro mindset of every decision and be like, stop bad.
What's the macro, what's the big takeaway here? Good.
Self Care
Surabhi: Yeah. I love that. , tell me three things that you like to do for yourself every day.
Jesal: Yeah, this one was like kind of harder, to be honest.
Surabhi: I'm thinking like simple, like drinking a coffee, like it could be any simple
Jesal: thing. Yeah. Okay. So I will say the one, you know what, because consistency I've realized is a long game in that sometimes things don't happen every day, but they happen over the, like they're consistent over the course of weeks and months.
Yeah, but like for example, We like to do green protein smoothies in the morning, but like we ran outta greens today, so it didn't happen. It's okay. But like
Surabhi: you can take mine. Like, I was gonna say, no, but like I never drink it because I'm like, really? Yeah. I'm like, [00:06:00] I gotta, I gotta put other things in it to like hide the taste of like the greens.
Jesal: This is what we do though. So this is our br This is like, tell me what's go, goes in yours. It's very simple and sometimes we make it a little bit fancy and sometimes not. So it's protein powder. And the protein powder we use right now, we switched because I'm pregnant, so we switched for prenatal protein powder and he did it with me cuz it's just easier.
Cute. Yeah. Um, but we used to use like, one that we liked bef a different one that we liked before. And then we'd do like a thing of packaging, like a bunch of greens and orange juice. That's it. It's simple. Keep it super simple. Oh, so like actual greens. Actual greens. Not like dehydrated,
Surabhi: whatever. That's what I have.
I have a greens powder and I'm like, yeah, tastes like fish food. Not that I know what that tastes like, but like just taste very little. What you imagine? Yeah.
Jesal: Alg. Yeah. No, so like it's pro, it's normal protein powder, like whatever, pick the one you want that fits your profile, whatever. And then. We do like an actual thing of greens.
I'm like, [00:07:00] I will just say a tip that I learned recently is if you buy those, like, you know those giant packs of like spinach or kale, but then sometimes they like go bad by the bottom. Yes. I found this tip. I found out this tip from like the internet and it's great. You put dry paper towel like a layer of dry paper towel on top and then when you store it, you store it upside down.
Oh, that all the moisture goes down into the paper towel, like extra moisture. And so like, and it's not all, it doesn't get moldy and wilty as quickly. Yeah, exactly. So we do like a bunch of greens and protein powder and orange juice cuz it makes it taste good. And like it's, you know, you need energy in the morning and that's like our breakfast.
We don't really eat anything till lunch, so it works for us. If I'm getting fancy, I'll put like turmeric in it, or ginger powder or like a piece of ginger. If I have some nice or whatever, we can get a little fancy with it. But for the most part, like today, yesterday I had leftover pineapples. I put some pineapple in it.
Oh, that'd be good too. You know, but that's like extra, that's like. That's the fancy day. That's the fancy day. So all the other [00:08:00] days it's just like, this is our basic, get it down. I got my serving of greens in, I got my serving of protein in and you know, I've got energy and I'm good to go. So,
Surabhi: and that like simplicity will serve you postpartum because Exactly.
Jesal: Time is gonna be serving me in life because everyone's busy. So it's like,
Surabhi: how do you, yeah. How do you actually get your nutrients in Yeah. Without
Jesal: like my husband. Yeah. It's been a game changer for us. And then another ritual we have is like we walk our dog every day and so we try to do it together. I'm usually, like, I was for a while, I was like the main one walking the dog.
But we do try to do it together and we try our best to not make it like screen time. Mm-hmm. Occasionally I'll take out my phone to like take a picture of him, my dog, cuz he is super cute. But like, you know, like for me especially, I'm like big on like, let's make this walk. No screen time, if possible, because we're actually getting outta the house.
Like, let's look at natures, let's look at trees. Start talking together. Connect. Yeah. Yeah. Spend time together, talk catch up if we're together even. Even if I'm alone, I'm like, [00:09:00] just focus your eyes out into the world like you've been on a screen all day and then. The third one I was thinking of recently, what am I doing?
And one of the ways that I like to chill out at night is to do like a puzzle, like a word, word puzzle, or like a Sudoku or something.
Surabhi: Oh, nice. Like a brain teaser or something.
Jesal: Yeah. It just like helps me take my mind off of like the problems of the day into like a very solvable problem that is like non-consequential.
Surabhi: Well, and it's almost like medi. Meditative. Cause it depends
Jesal: in a way, right? Like presence and focus. Focus. Yeah. Yeah. And I do meditate in all this stuff, but I don't, it's not like for me, it's part of the day rather than like I sit down like a separate ritual. Yeah. It's not a separate ritual. So for me, like the se, if you're talking about like a separate ritual, at the end of the day I'm like, oh, I've been thinking about all these crazy things, like problems of whatever the day, let me just refocus my mind onto something.
A fun problem that I can solve in like, [00:10:00] A matter of minutes,
Surabhi: give yourself those small wins because Right. That true. It's true. I never, I never actually thought about it that way, and I, I think that just was like an aha moment for me because it is about giving yourself those small wins, right?
Jesal: That little dopamine hit.
And if you, and it's also like if you don't solve it, it's like not the end of the world don't care. It's like I'm so not attached to solving it.
Surabhi: Yeah, it's not like a competitive thing. You're just literally doing it together.
Jesal: It doesn't follow me. I'm not, I'm like, oh, I didn't the puzzle. Like the next day there's a new puzzle.
I dunno. I'm here. That's hilarious. Yeah. So if you win, it gives you the hit. And if you lose, there's like no downside.
Surabhi: There's no downfall. Exactly. Well, and like most of us are getting our hits from like tv, social media screens, like all this other stuff that's like glitzy,
Jesal: but like it is on my screen. I will say I use the New York Times app, but that's okay.
But like now I'm thinking of like, oh, I should give myself a book of like Sudoku. I can [00:11:00] do like
Surabhi: Yeah, get yourself a book. Yeah. Especially like, I was thinking during like late night feeds or like when you're ba when you're rocking your baby sometimes like holding a phone. It's just so bright and. It keeps you awake.
So when you're ready to go to bed, when baby's asleep, you are still awake and then it becomes problematic cuz you're like, I just wanna sleep, but I'm like wired now from like screens. Yeah. So unless your, unless your screen has like a really low light setting and stuff, but sometimes it can be helpful to just have like a piece of paper and a pen
Jesal: or something.
Yeah, yeah. I'm with you. I'll probably buy a book to keep. Yeah. One of those like flip notebooks.
Surabhi: Exactly. It's one of those flip notebooks. I have like a million notebooks. Don't even look at my desk right now. It's just a disaster. This is like, I took the last two weeks of the year off partly just to relax with my family, but also to like clean, get all the cleaning and odd jobs done that I've like not done all year.
Yeah. Um, start the year fresh and then let's see how long it actually lasts. Okay. So tell [00:12:00] me what's something that you're really passionate about right now?
Jesal: Yeah, this one was a little harder for me, but I guess like preparing for this birth and the baby actually. Right. So that's the biggest thing. But it's funny because I feel like, you know, I was really burnt out at the beginning of this year, like so badly that it took me at least six weeks of the first year to open my laptop and like, yeah.
And then like as the year, I've taken it really slow. I think the pregnancy has given me permission to go slow, especially, I was so fatigued the first. Trimester, like legit, couldn't do anything. I was just like constantly sleeping. And I think that like now I've gotten to a point where I'm like re-inspired by my work.
So it's like so funny, like odd timing, but just isn't about to take maternity leave. I'm like feeling inspired about my work again. But I guess it's good. Like it'll want me coming back like afterwards. Exactly. You know?
Surabhi: And like I do think that pregnancy does give us. Permission to slow down, and if we're listening to our bodies, we actually slow down.
Mm-hmm. I, I didn't listen to my body with my first, with my [00:13:00] second I did, and it was a lot better pregnancy. Yeah. There's like, I, that's, that's
Jesal: partially why I've had a relatively smooth pregnancy so far is because I did. Fully given to like giving myself permission to do what I need to like cancel meetings as I needed to cancel meetings, just take on less projects, just keep stress levels really low.
And what's funny is like this last month has probably been the most stressful. Like all of November, I had like multiple projects going on at the same time. And I was like, this has been the most stressful and it is showing up in my body now. Your body now. So hopefully now that I'm taking like some weeks off, it'll like, you
Surabhi: know, I think that'll help to unwind.
Yeah,
exactly. My first was a week past, you know, the due date. The due date, which is like a guess anyways, but I, I, I worked till 38 weeks as well, and, The last two weeks I was like, you know, baking, food prep, got everything done and then I was done after like a week of that, and then [00:14:00] I still had like two extra weeks to chill.
Jesal: Yeah. So I'm, uh, I'm like some where as we're talking, I'm somewhere between 35 and 36 weeks. So I'm like, today is like my last official working day. I'm giving myself time. Good for you. Yeah, because yeah, cuz I was like, and I don't want to end on a fun note, I was like, oh, I'll do like an interview. But yeah, I, you know, there are things that are always to be done when you're an entrepreneur.
I'm like, oh, I still to do my taxes and I still have to like, it's all the odd stuff. Yeah. Yeah. All the odd jobs of, of like your entrepreneurship, but like no pressure, no deadlines, no launches, no like, you know, yeah. I have to do X, y, Z deadline things. So it's like,
Surabhi: It's like the fun stuff that you can do, but if you don't do, it's okay too.
Right?
Jesal: Yeah. Like if I have time and energy, I'll do it, and if I don't, it's not the end of the world. It'll be there.
Surabhi: That's awesome.
Lack of compassion in the world
Surabhi: Okay, so if you could change one thing about the world, what would you change?
Jesal: Oh my God. This was like the hardest question. What wouldn't, I mean, there's a lot of things about the world.
Surabhi: Last year I didn't ask that question. It was another question. It was, I don't even [00:15:00] remember what it was, but this year I added this question cause I'm like, I feel like this. It really speaks to like, first of all, a person's value system, but also like if we could literally go and change all these things, like how much better would the world be?
Okay. Like I always love hearing people's answers,
Jesal: so inequality was the first thing that comes to mind. I'm like, that's a huge ask. Inequality. If I could change inequality, I would, but also more. Uh, then I was like, okay, well more realistically what's like immediate. Issue that kind of leads into inequality.
And here's the biggest one I'm noticing these days, is there's just a huge lack of compassion. People are really lacking in the ability and skill of compassion for each other. And I think because I'm on the internet for my job, I see this constant. Lack of compassion and understanding of like there's a human behind the screen, the thing that you are screaming at right now, and you just don't even care that there's a human being there.
Surabhi: And I think it goes back to [00:16:00] that like people lack humanity when they're so used to, especially when you're. The oppressor on your more the oppressor. It literally takes your humanity away. Yeah. When you can't relate and you can't see other people like humans. And that compassion just relates back to that.
And I love that. If we could improve people's compassion, I. Just imagine. I think the world would start
Jesal: problems that will be solved. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, so much of these systems of oppression, they are systemic, but it's also systemically a lack of compassion for each other. Yeah. And if we were like to truly understand what somebody else is going through on all the levels, I don't think that we would be as oppressive.
Maybe it would still exist in some form, but Yeah. You know,
Surabhi: and I think just. That con, that like ability to be compassionate also means that you're seeing that other person as an equal, as a human.
Jesal: As fully [00:17:00] deserving of all this fully that you have or that I have or whatever it is. Right? Like the difference between that person and me is like birth, essentially like luck of the draw for a lot of it.
Yeah.
Surabhi: That's like whatever body they were born
Jesal: into. Whatever body, whatever community, whatever. Socioeconomic status, whatever family, craziness, all of the things. So much of it is like luck of the draw and if you can see that the person is still deserving and a human if they were in different circumstances and had different resources, and even like the, I say, luck of the draw, even like your internal resiliency that you're born with.
Yeah, born with. I think you can, you can cultivate some, right? But like some people are born with a different level of resiliency than others. Like that's luck. Yeah, and if you could see that and then expect, like have different expectations for people, like not everybody, because I think people who are really resilient, like lack compassion, they just don't get it.
Like you were just born, you were lucky that you were born with that. Not everyone gets that.
Surabhi: I was talking to a friend. [00:18:00] Uh, a colleague and she was like, you know, I have never experienced any traumas. Right? Like, you know, there's like the ace, like the adverse childhood events and stuff. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so a bunch of us were talking about ours and we were like, you know, these are some of the traumas that we've experienced and it's made me more of a compassionate person.
And, um, And she was like, you know, I've never experienced that, but I still feel like I'm compassionate. And I'm like, it's interesting that you say that because I don't actually think you are. I didn't say this to her, but I was like, you're not actually compassionate. Because in many ways you just don't get it because you were born with this loving parents and you know the support system.
You are the dominant race. You were wealthy, you got to travel the world because you were wealthy and all this other stuff. And you think you're compassionate, but being compassionate is not determined by the person, it's determined by the other people in response to you, right?
Yeah. So I don't get to call myself compassionate. It's the people I'm working with, the people who are [00:19:00] around me who would, you know, describe me as so or not. And so it was very interesting to see how people think of themselves as resilient or compassionate.
Jesal: And I'm like, we all like to think of ourselves as good though.
Like that's an in everyone's head. Even Hitler thought he was a good person. Oh, that's, you know what I mean? That's so true. Like in his mind's, he was the good person doing the right. He was doing the right thing.
Surabhi: Yeah. Wow. Right.
Jesal: So like everyone has this narrative of like, I'm a good person. And the reality is there we're then we're all on the spectrum then we're neither good nor bad.
We just do both. Our behaviors are good or bad or Right. And hopefully we start to see the response in the world and, and change it towards something that makes. People all like more, more of humanity, better rather than worse.
Surabhi: And I think that compassion is like an aspirational goal. There's no like, oh yeah, I'm compassionate now.
And I think that was that message that I was getting from her. She was like, oh, I'm, I'm a very compassionate person. And I'm like, are you or [00:20:00] are you, could you be more compassionate? Because I'm not saying she's not, she absolutely is from like alo, you know, overall perspective. But it's just like, That's giving yourself a checkbox like, I'm done,
Jesal: I'm done.
My job, I'm done. It's over. As opposed to like, this is like a continuous, this is ongoing goal and practice because we're like, when we're like, we're in pain. Yeah. We lack compassion for other people cause we're just thinking about our own pain. Whatever the type of pain that is. Physical, emotional, mental.
Right. Like all that stuff. So it's like Totally. Yeah. There are moments where I'm like, I've looked back and been like, ah, I did terrible today at that. Or like, I did really well at the today, like I know, you know, it's good job. Keep it up. You know, like Exactly. And yeah, but I think if we were trying to make the world a more equal place, that would be the skill that I would want everyone to kind of have and give everybody the skill of compassion.
Surabhi: And I have two kids. My daughter is far more compassionate, naturally. Now my second, I dunno if it's cuz she's the older [00:21:00] child or like more the responsible person or like whatnot,
Jesal: or just her nature, who knows? Like just her nature, who knows why people are born.
Surabhi: You know, maybe because of, I, my pregnancy with her was very stressful and she absorbed some of that like ability to relate and like, there's so many reasons and.
Things we might consider, but people are born sometimes more compassionate or empathetic. Mm-hmm. But it's a skill that we can all cultivate and continue to improve on. So thank you.
Jesal: I really like, and family dynamic, like, it's so interesting cause my husband's family just generally as a joke, as a joke, my brother-in-law calls them the lannisters cuz it's like they have trouble expressing their mo.
I mean, they're very sweet people. They a, they're very sweet. They're very kind and they have trouble expressing emotion, right? Mm-hmm. Just like, you know. A lot of families do. Yeah. And so like, and for my husband in particular, I remember like being compassionate didn't come naturally to him. Hmm. And so
Surabhi: yeah, if it wasn't shown to you as well as a kid, or like, not even not shown to [00:22:00] you, but like if, if it wasn't outwardly expressed, I mean, you don't have as much.
As much and as many years practicing. And it can be hard as,
Jesal: yeah. And I think for him, like again, cuz they grew up in such a loving environment, like you said, it's harder to understand folks who didn't when you did. Yeah. That being married to me and loving me and being me, being very imperfect was like a crash course in having to have compassion for somebody who is not like you, who cannot show up in the same way that you show up in the world.
Either externally or internally. Mm-hmm. And does that mean that you're gonna choose to not love this person? And what does love mean to you? Love that. You know, so like a lot of deep questions there that,
Surabhi: a lot of deep questions. And I also do think that like I. Um, I see it in the daycare system already.
Girls are more encouraged to be compassionate than boys. Boys are like screaming, hitting, you know, making a big mess and they're just allowed to do that. And girls are like, oh, did you [00:23:00] see how she is? Did you like, it's encouraged judgment. The judgment and like the caring for the dolls. So even if the girl innately didn't wanna do that, she's kind of nudged towards that direction.
Yeah. And I see it like literally starting age. Like 18 months onwards. And I'm like, people are also socialized to be more compassionate or not be more compassionate. Mm-hmm. So, because I have a boy, I'm like, I'm constantly working on that with him because society's not gonna, the school system, society's not gonna be encouraging that of him, let's put it that way.
Jesal: It's one of the things that is worrying me is having a. Having a male is like,
Surabhi: I know, but he gets to learn from you. Right. And I think that's, yeah, I think that is beautiful. It's like, first, I was like, I want two girls, right? And then when I had a boy, I was like, okay, like this is gonna be different.
But like, I just really, you know, He brings so much joy and like laughter and adventures and puzzle.
Jesal: I think, I think it's what I need probably in my life because I grew [00:24:00] like thinking about it. The reason I have so much anxiety around it is because it's such a foreign concept. I grew up with a sister. Ah, I didn't have a lot of male figures in my life.
Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's like very unfamiliar to me and in a way it's good cuz maybe I don't have like as many stereotypes attached to it. Like it has to be this way or it has to be, there's no like, well my brother was like this or my whatever, whatever was like this. So like there's less.
There's less like rigidity.
Surabhi: Oh, like you are his mother. Right. So it's like you control the dynamic. Yeah. Like you determine what goes on in the house. Like the, both the parents. But yeah, that's where I'm like, you know what, whatever goes on in the outside world, I can't control. But like
Jesal: I, and even my husband had a sister, so I feel like for him too, internally within the family, he was like around girls.
Yeah. Like he had, he had friends or whatever, but like, It's just very interesting. I think it's just like a foreign concept, like what is this child gonna be like?
Surabhi: And I think too, like as a girl, like I have so many female friends, so I was like, oh, like can I have a boy, kid? Like, I'm just thinking like immediately teenage [00:25:00] years, right?
But I'm like, you know what, that's a long ways away. Let's focus on, oh,
Jesal: I'm thinking immediately, like different body parts. Yeah,
Surabhi: that, I mean that too, but like, it's
Jesal: actually what, how did this all work? It's a whole new system.
Surabhi: Cleaning a boy baby and a girl.
Jesal: It is a lot easier to clean a boy. Is it? Everyone says it's the opposite cuz like, you know, the pee,
Surabhi: the poo doesn't get stuck in the vulva
oh. But that is, it can be a bit, a huge mess in
Jesal: terms of peeing, like they would say, like when you're changing a diaper, the pee. Anal goes like,
Surabhi: I think we got sprayed twice. I never did. My husband did. I was like, haha. I'm like, he knows not to, not to pee on his mother, but yeah, you essentially just, Point the penis down and like, cover up with the, the new diaper right away.
Yeah. Quickly. Right. Because it's cold when their bums are naked, so they don't wanna pee in a cold cuz they're, you know, when you're cold your like pelvic floor tightens up. Mm-hmm. So, um, anyways, didn't happen to us as, as [00:26:00] much. Every ch child is different.
Jesal: Yeah. But the whole like, equipment thing, I'm like, okay, there's gonna probably, there's different equipment, you know, like gotta learn about it in a way that I never thought I'd have to learn about.
So, um,
Surabhi: yeah, that's just, it's so true. It's totally different. Yeah. Totally different. Yeah. Um, but yeah. And that brings me to my last question.
Jesal's parent strength
Surabhi: What do you feel is your biggest strength? I often ask what do you feel is your mom's strength? And I feel like you're already a mother when you're pregnant, so I can ask you that too.
What do you feel like is your biggest strength
Jesal: or mom's strength? I had to think about this one a lot because I don't know like how these questions are so weird,
Childhood trauma
Jesal: but I will say one thing I'm proud of myself about is that I have done a lot of work to resolve so much of my childhood trauma. Hmm. And I don't think I could be, I wouldn't, 10 years ago I didn't want kids.
Five years ago, it was like me and I think because it took me like I did all this work [00:27:00] in resolving so much of my childhood trauma and setting boundaries in my life and being firm with them and knowing my why and all of this stuff that like it got to a point where I was like, and I'm not saying everybody, by the way, who has childhood trauma, if you just resolve it, wanna be a parent.
I don't think that that's true either, but I'm just saying, in my case, a lot of things fell into place. But one of the pieces was having really confronted my childhood trauma in like an intense way that I don't feel bitter about it and I don't carry, like, like I can talk about it objectively. This is how things were like, and then the, you know what I mean?
And so like, because I'm not like, so triggered about it and because my boundaries are really good and so I don't get re-triggered about it. , it gives me a lot of hope in terms of the type of parent I think I will. I can be, I have the capacity to be potentially, again, not perfect, but like, I don't think I would, you know, one of my biggest fears about being a parent was like, am I gonna just be reactively passing [00:28:00] this stuff on?
Surabhi: And as somebody who didn't start working on my own traumas until after I had kids. Mm-hmm. I am, I know for a fact you're gonna be so far ahead of that. Being, having a children is triggering in many ways cuz you don't even realize why it's triggering. Because you know, especially as a kid, if you know things happen, you don't, you're not actively like aware of it, but then your children cry or they scream about something or some kind of situation happens and your body goes into this like, Mode, and that was what I was working on with my therapist, is not being in that reactive mode.
And I feel like if you've already done a lot of the work, it is gonna be so much better for you as a mom, as a parent, as a person.
Jesal: It's a part. I mean, it starts as a partner. I'm in a partnership, so like this has been ongoing, like, you know, it's not like new. It shows up in your partnerships. And of course, any stressful sexual situation.
It comes up. So it's like 10 years of work [00:29:00] in a partnership. And like, this is, I mean, this sounds crazy to people who don't have pets, but like, we have a dog, right? Our dog is extremely needy. It has, he's like already changed our lives in so many ways for the better. Right? But like, it's like a mini, a mini course on like patience and practice practicing, which is good.
All of the. Right. And it's like, but I, I'm like, oh, it gives me hope that, like, you know, when the dog does something bad, the tendency from what I learned was to just scream. And I'm really like, proud of myself that I actually have this compassion for my, for my pet that says, that tells me he has no idea what the F I'm upset about.
He has no idea. And the fact that I can like, relate that skill, separate that, yeah. And be like, how am I gonna handle this? Knowing that this creature has no idea what they did wrong, does not understand why I'm upset. [00:30:00] What's the best course of action love to do to, to like change what I, or get the outcome I want.
Love that. Right? That's like a completely different skill that like my parents did not have no. I know,
Surabhi: and I feel that that's probably one of the most important ways to prepare for a child is the years of work that you've done. Yeah. Um, it's not the registry, even the book that you're reading, it's not even that.
I think it's what you are, have already done. And it's work that I wish that I knew I needed to do because I didn't know until after I had kids. And um, you know, for anyone listening who's like, oh, When's the right time? I always say like, when's the right time to go to therapy? I'm like, as early as you can whenever you're ready.
But like as early, you don't have to wait till after you have kids or like after you have postpartum depression or after that.
Jesal: Yeah, you can earlier. I mean, you know, earlier, and
Couples Therapy
Jesal: one of the things about my husband and I is like, we had a rocky start to our relationship. Like we, we had the honeymoon period [00:31:00] and then right after that was a very rocky period and we got engaged very quickly and married very quickly.
And so we had, ah, we had to Put in the work. And so we did therapy very early on and like not, we don't continue with therapy now, but for us, like it's also different, different therapists handle things very differently also. But I will say like our therapist was very like, did not wanna hear us complain for more than five minutes.
She was great. She was an older Jewish woman and she would be like, I got the picture enough already. This is what we're gonna do about it. This is your action steps. Here's your homework. And , I hated her in the beginning. I was like, this woman doesn't listen well. I just really was upset with her.
I thought about quitting therapy and now in retrospect, I'm like, she was the best freaking therapist. She's what she needed. She's what I needed. She just said it like it is, she heard my complaints. She was like, already knew what the root issues were and was like, she's probably so
Surabhi: used to seeing the same pattern show up in [00:32:00] relationships.
Jesal: Yeah, for sure. And she's like, this is not unsalvageable. This is like very like fixable problems. What you have is like normal, normal like stuff that couples go through. And so she would explain it in very like matter of fact terms, like she's like, you got married too much. You didn't get married enough.
Like that type of thing. And then , she's like, this is how time works when you're in a couple. Like she's very matter of fact things, oh my gosh, she sounds awesome. She's a yoga teacher. You should know about her.
Surabhi: You're like, oh my gosh, I'm being handed to here.
Jesal: She really did hand it to me. She really handed to both of us.
We both got our asses kicked. But I will say that like it was so necessary and it set us up for success. And I'm not saying again, it's a process. Not like, oh, we did therapy.
Surabhi: Yeah, but it's like, it's, it's not like checkbox, it's like a, a work in progress, right.
Jesal: But even now, we talk about like, well, remember that's not fair.
You're not fighting fair. Right. You know, like, you know the rules. You don't get to do this. And then me, like, hold me to a different standard. You have to, [00:33:00] we have to hold each other to the same standard. Right? So like the concepts from therapy continue to come up a decade later.
Surabhi: You know what I mean?
That's awesome. That's awesome. And it really goes to show that like, It's not about just signing up for something, whether it's therapy or whatever it is, it's you also putting in the work yourself. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, and like, si like, um, what's the word doing that for you? Because ultimately you're not doing it for your therapist, you're doing that for yourself and you're better.
Jesal: No therapist can fix your problem. No therapist can fix your, they can give you tools, but if you don't use them. Yes. Yeah. You know, that's not as, they're, they can't, they can force you. It's just like fitness. It's, it's the
Surabhi: trainer people. The trainer can tell you work. I'm like, give you the
Jesal: exercise, but if you don't do it, you know.
Surabhi: Exactly. Okay. Where can people find, can, can you share some of your work? Um, you know, you shared your yoga is dead podcast. I'll share the link to that. Can you share your ebook? Um, [00:34:00] You're proud.
Original Godmothers of Yoga ebook
Jesal: Yeah. The original godmothers of yoga. So proud of that, um, amazing book. If you're into like, history of yoga and wanting to know the diversity of all the different lineages, I mean, it's still limited, but like, just it opens your eyes as to how many different kinds of ways there are to practice yoga.
Um. So I, you know, e-book, definitely check it out. And then for my own personal work, aside from the Yoga's Dead podcast, you can find me at Yoga Walla on Instagram. And I'm sure you'll put in the link for the, with the, yeah, I'll add the link. Yeah. And I do have a website, but I would say like my link tree on my Instagram is actually like the most up to date on terms of projects that I'm doing.
So if you're looking to see what I'm up to, like check out my Instagram and check out the link tree.
Act Against Appropriation Seminar
Surabhi: And you have a workshop too, right? What do you mean act against appropriation?
Jesal: Oh yeah. So on the podcast we have a digital version of our act against appropriation workshop. It's a replay, it's a one hour replay from, um, a conference, a presentation we gave at a conference.
Nice. And it's. Like [00:35:00] in, I have to toot my own horn and mine and Tejal's own horn toot it. But I would toot it. I would say that it's, it's unique in, in the way that we lay out like a very matter of fact informative way of like what appropriation actually is and the ways it shows up and the ways it creates harm because, I think sometimes, like personal storytelling is great, and we do that and we do that on the podcast, and I think so many more people are starting to do that and it's amazing.
True Harm of Cultural Appropriation
Jesal: But one of the, , one of the things I see I don't see really out there laid out clearly is like, why is this thing really that a big deal? Like, why, how is it really showing up as harm? Like, is it just h hurting people's feelings? And it's like, no, it's actually going. It's not just that it hurts people's feelings.
It actually creates systemic harm. And it creates harm on a larger level, and it contributes to racism. It's not just like, oh, okay, well I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt, but.
Surabhi: Yeah, because I think that's how it comes out to a lot of the times it's like, [00:36:00] oh, I shouldn't use this word because you might be upset by it.
I'm like, no, it goes beyond that and I, right. I'm gonna, um, definitely share that podcast or that, um, workshop link, because actually something that you share, talk about a lot is the app difference between like appropriation and appreciation. So people don't understand that they think that. They're not appropriating when they are.
And it's one of the things that often goes missed is like the financial gains, right? It's like who's gaining financial? Who
Jesal: benefits, who's benefiting cost the benefit? Who does it cost and who's the benefit? And I think like again, there are some misconceptions. Like this showed up recently on uh, my Instagram cuz it.
That's something I posted, got shared a lot. So like some strangers were coming to my page and they're like, they thought cultural appropriation is like possessiveness over your culture, like nobody else should be able to practice it. Like tribalism, they called it. And I was like, no, that's not what's happening here.
It's, it's again, looking at winners and losers. Who's the winner in this situation and who's the loser? And why do we even have a dynamic of winners and losers [00:37:00] to begin with? Yeah. Right.
Surabhi: Yeah. And in other practices, I always think about it like, If I was to take an African tribal dance workshop and I loved it and I keep attending, I'm not gonna then go teach, teach it right and profit off of it because it's not mine to teach.
And that makes so much sense. Indigenous drum circle, whatever it is. But then no government,
Jesal: and it's not yours to teach because you haven't put in the work to really understand the cultural, no underlying cultural assumptions, the actual context, you know, there's so many facets,
Surabhi: so much history, and like there's so many.
And then
Jesal: also, and then again, like who's winning and who's losing? Like what, who are you taking away from?
Surabhi: Who's money am I, who's not making the money that they could be making? Because I'm now teaching it. Right? And it's. To me that's like, so like clear. But then when it comes to yoga, I think because it's been so diluted, or not even diluted but like so [00:38:00] removed from like the South Asian diaspora, that it's, people don't even think about it in the same way cuz they just think it's something that white folks created.
And it's fitness. And it's fitness and it's just a trend or like Pilates or whatnot. And
Jesal: like, and again in that, one of the things we talk about is like, well what happens when changes context? And it's. The harm that's created is that it now has to fit into this new ideology and. There's a lot of beautiful things lost in translation that harms everybody.
Like for example, when you turn, and I'm not, by the way, I'm not saying you should never teach yoga as fitness or yo yoga Asana alone. I think if you're transparent about what you're teaching and why you're offering it in that way, that's fine. I think it's fine to be like, I'm an asna teacher and this is what I focus on, but this is not the entirety of, of yoga.
This what yoga practice is right. But I do think that one thing that gets lost is there's already aerobics, there's already calisthenics, there's already all of these other [00:39:00] fitness modalities. And what you're losing in the process is all of the, the mindfulness connections, the mind body connections, the way that you can integrate the somatic experience into the rest of your layers of your life and the layers of self.
And when you take that out, everybody loses. Everybody loses cuz now we've lost an option in terms of the ways that we can apply ourselves in the world. Right? Because again, calisthenics exists. Aerobics exists.
Surabhi: Yeah. Just movement. Stretching is not any new. I know. Yeah.
Jesal: So why are we trying to make this thing an apple into an orange?
Why can't we just have apples and oranges? Yeah. Right. It's like you've just lost choice when you've tried to convert this apple into an orange. Yeah.
Surabhi: And I think that's a really important point. It's like if you're gonna run an Asana class, call it that. But I think what happens is that people are, everybody [00:40:00] knows yoga is good for your brain, right?
Like, oh, so they attend an Asana class and they're expecting that that alone is gonna be good for their brain. And like, yes, there's exercise benefits and whatnot, but it's not. If it's not being taught from a cultural lens and a perspective of like, the whole picture, you're losing out on so much. Um, and then it's just movement.
You know? It's, it's a,
Jesal: it's like, again, if you're trying to convert an, I think the food analogy is great, right? Because like some people like apples, some people like oranges and some people like fruit salad. And the whole thing is like if you're trying to take an orange and turn it into an apple, like why?
Yeah. One, you can just have both or have the one you like. Yeah. Like, what's the point of that? Like you, again, you're eliminating your own options and choice, choice and variety. When you are trying to make the apple into an orange, and I think it's the same thing with yoga. Like yeah, you could eat just the skin of both the fruits or you could just eat the flesh of both the fruits.
But the reality is the fruits are different and they taste [00:41:00] different and they both have value. So like why? Mm.
Surabhi: And this is something that, I love that you share on your page so openly with un unapologetically too. Mm-hmm. Because it empowers other people like me and other people who have maybe experienced with yoga, but , have felt silenced a lot of times in spaces.
Mm-hmm. And I think that there is power in just you speaking up because it. Empowers others. So I really have to thank you for that because if it wasn't for people like you doing it, I don't think I would've learned as much. Do you know what I mean? I appreciate that because my parents will never understand.
Because they were, you know, full grown adults when they came here, so they don't get it. They're like, yeah, of course it's still ours. What are you talking about? They're not going to those classes. Right. Whereas like everyone in my generation, they still think yoga is Lululemon leggings and flexibility
Jesal: too, and whatever it is.
I think this, this needs to be [00:42:00] re, I've said this before and it needs to be reiterated, is that when we're talking about mainstream yoga spaces, we are talking about. White centered affinity spaces. Yeah, because when we talk about yoga in our community, there's no gatekeeping. There's no like you have to go to a place that you charges you money and you have to wear these types of clothing and you have to have a mat and you have to, when we're talking about yoga in our community, it's like friends and family getting together in community.
Teaching each other. You don't need special clothes, you don't need special equipment's, like whatever is around
Surabhi: designated time. Even sometimes you're just like, yeah, like I will will be watching TV and my dad will just go sit somewhere and like, you know, yeah.
Jesal: Move or like or do his brown or whatever.
Like I remember the first time I learned Kapal Body was my father teaching me on in a vacation in Hawaiian. We're just like hanging around. He is like doing his kabak. He's like, let me teach you. Like what? This [00:43:00] is like, okay, cool. Like, you know, and it's like it's, when we talk about mainstream spaces, we have to, because people get upset.
They're like, oh, well why do we need to diversify? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, it all exists already out there. What's happening is these mainstream spaces are white centered affinity spaces. Yeah. So we just have to keep that in mind that like we are, actually, what has happened is people have gone out of their way to create special spaces to make white people feel comfortable.
Surabhi: That's, that's exactly what you just said, that those same
Jesal: people could have gone to any community center. Yeah. Where yoga's being taught already where events are already happening because it is being taught.
Surabhi: It is. It's being local Temple offers every Tuesday night. Exactly. Offers free, free yoga.
Jesal: Right.
Exactly. And it's, and you make a couple friends at the temple and they'll invite you to a budgin and you go to a budgin and you'll meet some auntie, your uncle that's like done an Asana class. Yeah. [00:44:00] So, yeah. Like it's already being offered. Yes. I think D Diane Bondi even talked about it in Toronto where, um, cuz she's from the Toronto, greater Toronto area as well.
Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. And Diane once. Said in an something we were all in together. Diane once told me that she didn't realize that there was like a South Asian community already doing Oh yeah. She got invited to something and she's like, oh, y'all have been here doing your own thing. Like, you know,
Surabhi: yeah.
We've always been here. It's just we're not. And the thing is, it's not even like I wanna profit off of it. I just,
Jesal: that's the whole point. You don't hear about it. Cause no one's marketing it because it's not a profit, profit thing.
Surabhi: Yeah. That's not why we're doing it. Right. Yeah. But when it's being absorbed by white.
Culture, everything becomes about making a profit
Jesal: off of,
I mean, this is like the most clear in the Kundalini community, right? Like they have to create their own separate space in which to practice some version of Sikhism that is obviously like unorthodox goes against the, like the actual religion, but [00:45:00] regardless, like let's say they believe they were actually Sikh, their temples exist, but you don't feel comfortable.
Right. And you don't feel that welcome because of the way you're practicing against the rules, essentially. Yeah. And you decided that you're gonna create an affinity space for white folks. Hmm. As opposed to trying to assimilate into the existing structure. And now you make it the burden of people who already have trouble assimilating to assimilate to you.
Surabhi: Wow. So powerful. And that's. I've been to, we have festivals here like Taste of India, festival of India, and there's often a yoga, like yoga thing and almost always there's a white person with dreads, like so much cultural appropriation and chanting and whatnot. But it seems very inauthentic because all the people attending are also white.
The Indian [00:46:00] folks are not attending the yoga class cuz they're like, this isn't, this isn't what we are familiar with. And you know, they're just like, oh, just free. Let's love each other. And I'm like, this is not yoga. But we have created spaces, even within our festivals for these people to exist because that's how open and accepting we are.
But it's gotta go both ways because this is. You know, we shouldn't have to earn our privilege to show up in spaces. And that was ours to begin with. And that's what's happened. Right. And, yeah, I, I love what you just said. I think that's so powerful. I'm gonna have to replay that and listen to that again cuz it's just, it's just so powerful.
Yeah. Um, and people need to sit with that discomfort. If you're listening to this, if you're a white yoga teacher and you're listening to this and you're like, oh. Sit with that,discomfort
Jesal: the studio. All the studios, they [00:47:00] always, and this, this is the inten sincere intention I think of most yoga businesses.
The sincere intention is all, is all our welcome. You know, I've, we've, I've talked about this extensively, but that's, I, people don't say that without actually trying to mean it, the real, but they don't understand. All the levels of interplay of what that means. And when you open up a yoga business, it's a mainstream yoga business, a studio in a gentrified neighborhood especially, and you're charging money now at the door and all of the things, and it's a business.
What has happened is you've accidentally created a white centered affinity space. Yep. Whether you meant to or not. And so you gotta sit with that and what that means, you know, for you as a business owner, I'm not, I'm not saying, oh, you shouldn't have a business, you should have done, I'm just saying all of us are in this place of sitting with our roles as both the oppressor and the oppressive.
Right, right, right. What does that mean [00:48:00] for you? Right. And it's gonna be different for every, the answer's gonna be different for each person.
Surabhi: And I think that when you actually do that work, that's when you kind of transform, right? And you, you become a better, more compassionate individual. Yeah.
Jesal: Um, actually, and the answer for you today, it might look different for you, the answer from 10 years from now.
Right.
Surabhi: This journey will evolve. That's one of my goals is to actually go to India and learn from. Like an Indian place, but I'm curious what you thought about your yoga, we'll talk about it after, but about your yoga teacher training that you did in India.
Jesal: Um, I have mixed feelings. I'll just say that. Like we, I don't need, we don't need to get into it, but I have a lot of mixed feelings about it.
Yeah.
Surabhi: And where can, so best people, best place for people to find you is on Instagram. Am I right? Mm-hmm. Okay. At yoga walla mm-hmm. Sounds good. And I'm gonna share all the links in the show notes, [00:49:00] including the e-book, the workshop, some email resources, uh, on deco. And I love that you have a decolonized yoga playlist.
That's awesome. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And thank you so much, Jesal for your time and your passion comes through so clearly. I've already learned so much from you, and I know that my audience will learn even more. I think you're gonna make an amazing, incredible mother and compassionate human being that is literally changing, changing the world.
Thanks so much for listening. Please share this podcast with anyone who practices yoga, who teaches yoga, appreciates yoga, or anybody who just wants to learn more about this. Thank you so much.
